OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[GorgeousGeorge]

Simple question. Why has it changed? Simple answer BECAUSE of the merger. the merger changed your expectations.

Using your logic it would be appropriate to go back and reorder the east list because things have changed. Want to give the Piedmont and Empire guys their DOH? Want to give up the Kagel award because that has nothing to do with today if you believe what you say.

If we merge with american should we use their BK situation and 1113 contract with 1700 furloughed pilots or look back at their peak and use those facts?

If the east had accepted the Nicolau and we had gotten a contract there would be a different landscape. Seham tried that during the addington. Pointed to UN MERGED career expectation then used examples of POST MERGER.

what if Parker decides to move a bunch of flying and all the new 330's to PHX. would that be because of the merger? Would that change the situation in 2005?

there is not going to be a second merger between AWA and US Airways. No redo's, no do overs.

No new merger. Just completion of a single seniority list using DOH principles. So simple a caveman could do it.

 

[luvthe9]

Clear direct. I think your 2005 era argument has been far eclipsed. I don't think it can be used rationally anymore in any integration. That was almost 8 years ago. That was old data and the landscape is far changed

Clinging to straws, that's all they have.

 

[luvthe9]

No redo's, no do overs.

Thank God you finally got it. DOH

 

[Pi brat]

So a consultant tells you the truth and you hope usapa does not hire him????? I now see why the east is in the position you are in. No Lakefield did not just have not enough money he had NO money line up. There was no money to line up. Understand that point.

Yes usapa passed a list. The same list that a jury found to be a DFR and the same list that the ninth said you needed to find another list because this one will get you sue and you will lose. But if usapa is so blind that they are going to propose the same list again. Please hurry.

My mistake it was Luv that said it was over.

700UW provided me with this link and it is a good review of what happened:

http://old.post-gaze...2/508153-28.stm

He also said we were working with GECAS and the ATSB on loans we already had. Then there was Air Wisconsin:

http://news.airwise....1109621176.html


February 28, 2005

A federal bankruptcy court on Monday approved plans by Air Wisconsin to invest USD$125 million in US Airways Group, US Airways said on Monday.
The stake by Air Wisconsin's financing arm is structured as a debtor-in-possession (DIP) loan. It represents half of what US Airways is seeking in cash to exit bankruptcy by June 30.





You never answered my question, you just got heated by it and told me to go read MY contract. Did AWA have a DC plan or a matching 401k plan? Up until the merger I was told that you guys had to first fund you 401k and AWA would MATCH up to 10%. With the merger

 

[luvthe9]

Bular rumored to be demoted- now has to report to Seymore...
Almost all authority stripped...
The email- gate from Wednesday = severe problems for east- centric Flt ops management.
The east tyranny is coming to an end.

The world is coming to an end soon anyway 12-21-2012.

 

[Claxon]

http://leonidas.cact...c196_Motion.pdf

Filed Thurs Oct 18th.


Your company is working diligently to gum up your negotiations again. Franke Air at it's best. Eastern and western divisions stuck endlessly working with the Franke style machinations.
Is this what drove Nic4 to seek holiday madness?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

How is 1/3 of the east list left off? Every single east pilot is on the Nicolau list. If somehow you think that being at the bottom of the list is left off that is your mistake.

The reality of the situation was that of the 5000 east pilots only 3300 had a job at the time. It is to bad that 1/3 of your list was furloughed. But that does not mean that those furloughed pilots get to come back senior to west pilots. So by definition the next 1/3 bottom 1/3 active middle 1/3 of your entire list made up the bottom of the active list. They ended up exactly where they were on your stand alone list.

Show me a list that puts 1700 furloughs senior to active pilots. Show me any merged list using any method that puts more than a few furloughed pilots senior to active pilots. So logically,historically, by any reasonable thinking furloughed pilots would go to the bottom of the list.

So starting there it would be a windfall to have an active east pilot go from bottom junior reserve one number from furlough on his list to being senior to captain from the other airline on a merged list leaving a gap 1000 solid west pilot with only a couple hundred west pilots mixed in with 3000 east pilots. It is a SENIORITY INTEGRATION. Nicolau merged our two lists by seniority.

I agrre it is a number game. Accept you had as many pilots on furlough as the west had on our list. So any small movement to improve the angry F/O club does significant harm to the west pilots.

All of your pilots are on the nicolau list they just are not where they think they should be.

This thing is not going to go another 5 years. With or without a merger. As I have said before with a merger we are going to have a contract in place before the seniority arbitration between APA and usapa. That single agreement implements the Nicolau so we go into the next one with 2 lists.

As to your point about recalls AFTER and BECAUSE of the merger. it was 300 out of 1700 not 1/3 of anything. Now if you want to argue about who should be on the list the CEL guys should not be on the list. They never worked for mainline that has been proven twice at arbitration. But nicolau allowed none mainline pilots.

ANSWER A RELATIVE QUESTION? 1983DOH ON DOWN HOW MANY NUMBERS ARE THE WEST SENIOR TO THE EXACT HIRE DATES THEY HIRED AHEAD OF WEST PILOTS ABLE TO BID WIDEBODIES which they never had SENIOR TO THE EAST, 1200 ring a bell?!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

How is 1/3 of the east list left off? Every single east pilot is on the Nicolau list. If somehow you think that being at the bottom of the list is left off that is your mistake.

The reality of the situation was that of the 5000 east pilots only 3300 had a job at the time. It is to bad that 1/3 of your list was furloughed. But that does not mean that those furloughed pilots get to come back senior to west pilots. So by definition the next 1/3 bottom 1/3 active middle 1/3 of your entire list made up the bottom of the active list. They ended up exactly where they were on your stand alone list.

Show me a list that puts 1700 furloughs senior to active pilots. Show me any merged list using any method that puts more than a few furloughed pilots senior to active pilots. So logically,historically, by any reasonable thinking furloughed pilots would go to the bottom of the list.

So starting there it would be a windfall to have an active east pilot go from bottom junior reserve one number from furlough on his list to being senior to captain from the other airline on a merged list leaving a gap 1000 solid west pilot with only a couple hundred west pilots mixed in with 3000 east pilots. It is a SENIORITY INTEGRATION. Nicolau merged our two lists by seniority.

I agrre it is a number game. Accept you had as many pilots on furlough as the west had on our list. So any small movement to improve the angry F/O club does significant harm to the west pilots.

All of your pilots are on the nicolau list they just are not where they think they should be.

This thing is not going to go another 5 years. With or without a merger. As I have said before with a merger we are going to have a contract in place before the seniority arbitration between APA and usapa. That single agreement implements the Nicolau so we go into the next one with 2 lists.

As to your point about recalls AFTER and BECAUSE of the merger. it was 300 out of 1700 not 1/3 of anything. Now if you want to argue about who should be on the list the CEL guys should not be on the list. They never worked for mainline that has been proven twice at arbitration. But nicolau allowed none mainline pilots.

ALPA, GET A LIFE!

 

[mrbreeze]

http://leonidas.cact...c196_Motion.pdf

Filed Thurs Oct 18th.


Your company is working diligently to gum up your negotiations again. Franke Air at it's best. Eastern and western divisions stuck endlessly working with the Franke style machinations.
Is this what drove Nic4 to seek holiday madness?

This should be obvious to ALL Usair pilots, it only hurts us all.

I would think the NMB could also see this ploy as bogus.
breeze

 

[Pi brat]

http://leonidas.cact...c196_Motion.pdf

Filed Thurs Oct 18th.


Your company is working diligently to gum up your negotiations again. Franke Air at it's best. Eastern and western divisions stuck endlessly working with the Franke style machinations.
Is this what drove Nic4 to seek holiday madness?

I'm no lawyer Claxon, but that actually looks like the company just wants to make sure the Judge's ruling applies to ALL WEST PILOTS. That actually doesn't look good to me for them, but again I guessing.

"the judgment does not describe the class bound by
the judgment, as required by Rule 23(c)(3)."

"The Court’s intent here was clear – to have its judgment bind the West Pilots class.
(See, e.g., Doc. No. 193 at 1 n.1 (“The West Pilot Defendants are Don Addington, John
Bostic, Mark Burman, Afshin Iranpour, Roger Velez, and Steve Wargocki, on behalf of
themselves and the certified West Pilot Class.&rdquo😉.) Accordingly, it is appropriate for the
judgment to be corrected pursuant to Rule 60(a) to conform to the technical requirements
for class-action judgments."

 

[Claxon]

The company thrives on dysfunction.

I'm no lawyer Claxon, but that actually looks like the company just wants to make sure the Judge's ruling applies to ALL WEST PILOTS. That actually doesn't look good to me for them, but again I guessing.

"the judgment does not describe the class bound by
the judgment, as required by Rule 23©(3)."

"The Court’s intent here was clear – to have its judgment bind the West Pilots class.
(See, e.g., Doc. No. 193 at 1 n.1 (“The West Pilot Defendants are Don Addington, John
Bostic, Mark Burman, Afshin Iranpour, Roger Velez, and Steve Wargocki, on behalf of
themselves and the certified West Pilot Class.”).) Accordingly, it is appropriate for the
judgment to be corrected pursuant to Rule 60(a) to conform to the technical requirements
for class-action judgments."

The company thrives on entitled weak pilots like you. You waffle often on this board.

 

[Pi brat]

The company thrives on entitled weak pilots like you. You waffle often on this board.

I'm not waffling, I'm giving my opinion. This is not an appeal, just a filing for clarification, right? I fully admit I could be wrong.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Bular rumored to be demoted- now has to report to Seymore...
Almost all authority stripped...
The email- gate from Wednesday = severe problems for east- centric Flt ops management.
The east tyranny is coming to an end.

What is "email-gate." Can you please expand? (I only go back a day or so when I log on, so I may have missed the discussion here.)Greeter

 

[cleardirect]

No new merger. Just completion of a single seniority list using DOH principles. So simple a caveman could do it.

So simple an east pilot can understand. The neutral arbitrator told you no DOH. The ninth circuit told you no DOH.

You might have a chance if DOH was the only criteria used for SENIORITY integration but it is not. So no DOH for you.

No redo, no do over.

 

[Pi brat]

Show me a list that puts 1700 furloughs senior to active pilots. Show me any merged list using any method that puts more than a few furloughed pilots senior to active pilots. So logically,historically, by any reasonable thinking furloughed pilots would go to the bottom of the list.

A second issue, labelled "explosive" by Gill, concerned the manner in which approximately 400 Pan Am pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were to be integrated. This large number of furloughees resulted from Pan Am's switch from smaller planes to B747s, the largest wide-bodied aircraft, and Pan Am's poor financial health in the preceding few years. Gill stated that this furlough situation created"a head-on clash over the relative equities as between large numbers of National airmen hired between 1968 and 1978 and actively employed at the time of the merger, and large numbers of these Pan Am furloughees with earlier dates of hire who still have recall rights but who brought no active jobs to the merger." (Gill Op. at 8).
13
Gill's solution was to calculate the Pan Am furloughees' length of service at the time of their recall, and to slot them into the list by comparing their length of service with that of the active airmen at that time. (An exception was made for about 34 furloughed Pan Am pilots who had received notice of recall before January 19, 1980). He indicated a willingness, had the parties (or the "JANUS" group, representing the furloughees) submitted a proposal estimating the likely dates of recall of the furloughees and the likely length of service of the active pilots at those dates, to integrate the furloughees on that basis. However, no such proposal was forthcoming "[p]erhaps because of the difficulties in fashioning projections of that nature." Id. at 41. While noting that his solution to the furloughee problem might seem novel, Gill observed that
14
"the problem itself is novel--there has not been any previous merger case called to my attention where such massive numbers of furloughees, with such long periods of being off the property, were pitted against active airmen from the other airline who brought current jobs to the merger." Id. at 40.