OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

I will be the first to agree when the East was told by the arbitrator making the list that DOH wouldn't fly, and then they came back with DOH or nothing again... wtf were they thinking??

But aren't you guys doing the exact same thing? You are saying NIC or nothing. You are being told in court that the NIC may not happen. And all you come back with, or go all in with, is NIC or nothing... Don't you think another "wtf" is in order??

We are being told by the court that if the Nic does not happen then we can sue....

Further , we are being told by 3 of the 5 judges that have looked at it, plus the jury, that if we sue...the scab union is likely toast..

Also, it looks as if the company lawyers agree with us, and know that if the company agrees to a non-Nic...they have colluded in amending the CBA to specifically allow usapa to fail in their DFR to the West.


That is a whole lot diffrent then not working with the arbitrator when he specificaly tells you your position is just not going to happen...But, hey, the company also told them they ain't getting DOH, before the arbitration, and after, the first attorneys they asked said, "do not tell anyone your reason for voting a scab union is, because any judge that looks at it will not be on your side",,,,,then they met the union busting little lawyer they since had to fire.

 

[nic4us]

For all the east guys seaking "middle ground".

Okay...fair enough..here is the middle ground offer..

The Nic, unmodified, to its terms with no limiting conditions and restriction. Full repayment of all legal fees to AOL..plus reimbursement to the 24 West pilots maliciously sued in the RICO suit.

In exchange, we won't seek reimbursement of all 4 years of dues, and we will get you off LOA93 prior to your retirement.

 

[FL430]

For all the east guys seaking "middle ground".

Okay...fair enough..here is the middle ground offer..

The Nic, unmodified, to its terms with no limiting conditions and restriction. Full repayment of all legal fees to AOL..plus reimbursement to the 24 West pilots maliciously sued in the RICO suit.

In exchange, we won't seek reimbursement of all 4 years of dues, and we will get you off LOA93 prior to your retirement.

Ummmmm............NO!

 

[nic4us]

Ummmmm............NO!

See,,,,,we knew you were not looking for middle ground.

 

[luvn737s]

I will be the first to agree when the East was told by the arbitrator making the list that DOH wouldn't fly, and then they came back with DOH or nothing again... wtf were they thinking??

But aren't you guys doing the exact same thing? You are saying NIC or nothing. You are being told in court that the NIC may not happen. And all you come back with, or go all in with, is NIC or nothing... Don't you think another "wtf" is in order??

The court said that they couldn't prevent USAPA from negotiating any list they want with the company, but they said nothing about allowing implementation of a list that harmed the west. I don't blame Nicolau for this mess, he did what was asked of him. The core of this problem was in allowing a change in bargaining agents between the time the Seniority List was delivered and when a contract was to be voted on, giving the false impression that the pilots would have veto power over the seniority decision. The NMB dropped the ball big time by accepting any cards until a single contract was in place.

So the east pilots view everything in the MOU as a concession, but they seek concessions from the west and call it "middle ground". The essence of hypocrisy.

No, the Nic should be implemented as-is, but if they want to build in protections to offset the negatives of the Nic and put it out for a vote, then I say go for it. But USAPA is not about votes or advocating for the pilots or contractual improvements and doing their fair share to raise the bar in the industry, they are about holding the fence up and letting as many illegals sneek in as possible before they are caught, relying on the amnesty (no bump no flush)in the TA.

 

[Zone5]

The SLI issue between East and West, in all likelihood, will be OBE (overtaken by events) if the merger with AMR occurs.

All this rhetoric regarding ANYTHING from the last seven years or so, will not matter. There is no East-West JCBA, which means the NIC will be dead, our TA will be OBE and therefore the East-West PID will not mean squat, with respect to an AMR merger.

None of any of this stuff matters, we never consummated our merger and in fact we have never really merged (at least with respect to the pilots). On what basis do we bid our monthly schedules, our vacations, our pay or our equipment and base bids? On our separate dates of hire, correct? As pilots, we operate as if there was NEVER a merger, we live with our separate DOH status, period! As it should be!

One of the few things I agree with Doug Parker on is that there will be a three way seniority integration. If he has his way, it will take a "long" time" to complete the process. The rest of the eventual JCBA with AMR is of much more interest to "Team Tempe" than how we divide up who is flying what. They really do not care and have told all of us so, on many occasions.

It will be, what it will be and none of us will really have anything to say about the matter at the end of the day. I saw the same thing at Eastern, as riotous as one's position may be, it does not trump the desires of the "big money", if the powers at be want this merger, it will happen and our little SLI "pissing contest" wont mean squat! Outside of saving the company "lots" of money!


seajay

 

[EastUS1]

Dream on. I know not ONE AWA pilot willing to meet you half way.

Ames: "I get a kick out of hearing you fools whine for middle ground."

Ames: "Reasonable people would recognize when they are dead wrong."

One must just slowly and sadly shake his head in utter and complete amazement here.....

 

[EastUS1]

The SLI issue between East and West, in all likelihood, will be OBE (overtaken by events) if the merger with AMR occurs.

It will be, what it will be and none of us will really have anything to say about the matter at the end of the day. I saw the same thing at Eastern, as riotous as one's position may be, it does not trump the desires of the "big money", if the powers at be want this merger, it will happen and our little SLI "pissing contest" wont mean squat! Outside of saving the company "lots" of money!

Agreed.

 

[A320 Driver]

See,,,,,we knew you were not looking for middle ground.

Oh, he was looking alright. There just isn't any from you or your buds. All or nothing, take no prisoners, give me the NIC or else. That about sums it up I guess.

Driver...

 

[EastUS1]

Had it been me, I would have spelled "thought" correctly.

Spelling the word thought, versus actually being capable of one, aren't one and the same 😉

 

[EastUS1]

No, the Nic should be implemented as-is, but if they want to build in protections to offset the negatives of the Nic and put it out for a vote, then I say go for it.

"...implemented as-is.." but yet somehow with ".. protections to offset the negatives of the Nic."...? Huh? Does that make any actual sense to anyone here?

 

[EastUS1]

We are being told by the court that if the Nic does not happen then we can sue....

That's some amusing spin there. What you've actually been told by the courts is that the nic needn't happen, but of course, as is most always the case with anyone, anytime and anywhere, and over pretty much anything at all; you're always completely free to sue.

I'd not-so-gently suggest that relying on a joke of a case, so absurdly flawed that it shouldn't have even been seated in court, even just due to ripeness alone...well...if Wake's your fantasized warranty for unquestioned future success....what can be said other than good luck and have fun.

 

[prechilill]

Oh, he was looking alright. There just isn't any from you or your buds. All or nothing, take no prisoners, give me the NIC or else. That about sums it up I guess.

Driver...

The Nicolau is middle ground- a compromise. Under your plan you want to put furloughed pilots ahead of 16 year 757 captains.

 

[EastUS1]

The Nicolau is middle ground- a compromise. Under your plan you want to put furloughed pilots ahead of 16 year 757 captains.

While your "middle ground"..umm..."compromise" would place a 3 month, new-hire over a person with 17 years of unbroken service. I'd suggest that a wee bit more devoted research into the definition and philosophy of "middle ground" would prove beneficial for you.

On a slightly more caustic note; I remember chat snippets from as far back as the winter of 2007, when you were joyously and loudly throwing out such delectable barbs as "Ho, Ho, Ho! St. Nic is coming to town!" How's that "middle ground" of yours actually been working out for you?

 

[Phoenix]

While your "middle ground"..umm..."compromise" would place a 3 month, new-hire over a person with 17 years of unbroken service. I'd suggest that a wee bit more devoted research into the definition and philosophy of "middle ground" would prove beneficial for you.

People who are now voluntarily on furlough should be ahead of pilots who were never furloughed before. It makes perfect sense.