OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nycbusdriver]

The award was basically the same as the Shuttle award and the Delta Nothw
est award, were those unfair too?

If you ask a Shuttle pilot, or a Northwest pilot, you would hear the answer: "YES!"

My friend at DAL (former 1981-hire at NWA) is livid over the award there. However, his union managed to keep his lump-sum benefit which can be taken at age 60. On that birthday, he is taking the money and leaving DAL.

The Shuttle pilots have always thought that first Nicolau award was unfair, and they had a bit of a point. The fact that each and every one of them had to RESIGN their EAL position (and hence their hire date) to come to the Trump Shuttle weakened their argument for getting their EAL date of hire.

 

[A320 Driver]

The Shuttle pilots have always thought that first Nicolau award was unfair, and they had a bit of a point. The fact that each and every one of them had to RESIGN their EAL position (and hence their hire date) to come to the Trump Shuttle weakened their argument for getting their EAL date of hire.

On the other hand, I've spoken to their chief negotiator for the Shuttle arbitration and he told me that he considered it a win since NIC gave them nine of their ten "asks".

Probably not going to get what you don't ask for and they NEVER asked for EAL DOH (until they filed the law suit against USAPA).

Driver...

 

[A320 Driver]

I'm a little weary of the faceless volley back & forth. You east folk have even outed some of your own that oppose your date of hire land grab.

Many of you have guessed correctly. I have the same moniker that I use everywhere: Cactusboy53. It's part of my e-mail address.

I am Dave Simmons. A PHX based pilot on the Airbus, and a current PHX representative. It is my goal to represent my PHX based pilots to the best of my ability.

It is my agrument that simply changing the name of the CBA & its Constitution & Bylaws does not allow the new CBA to cherry pick what portions of the contracts, letters of agreements & side letters that it wishes to follow. The Nicolau seniority list is the only existing legal seniority list, and IMHO it will be the only one used in a JCBA within our organization and/or with any merger parnter. Contrary to the exclamation "We've WON!!", you have won delay and nothing else. Further, you have most certainly lost countless monies, benefits and time off.

So how about it cyber-kiddies? Who be you? I could guess, but let's face it.....your monikers aren't nearly as much a give away as an e-mail address.

Who is:

• MUTATIS MUTANDIS
• luvthe9
• Claxon
• nevergiveup
• EastUS1
• A320 Driver
• end_of_alpa
• nycbusdriver
• Phoenix
• Walmartgreeter

Step up. Be a man (or woman) and claim your bad-self. We already know how right you are, tell us who you are. Don't be affraid. Hiding behind a keyboard no way to go through life.

Dave

Like to mail me some dog poo?

Driver...

 

[end_of_alpa]

Lets start a new blame thread: found out there is a movement at APA to a vote for APA pilots whether they want to merge or not. So who's to blame for them not wanting to merge with us?

"Christopher Manno
DFW/CA/737/DOM
Emp: 017656
Sen: 835

Total Posts: 2,059
Last Post: 11/24/2012

Subscribe to this author

We are closing in on our goal of what will be unavoidably considered a large and credible number of signatures and would like to push the total over the top, with delivery to 4 UCC members this weekend.

If you'd like to join the multitude of APA members in good standing who have signed this letter (details below), please do so and share the link with other crewmembers.

Here is the information:

Join the growing number of APA pilots finally having their say about the dangerous ramifications of a seniority merger with the pilots of USAir by signing the letter to the UCC.

This immediate action is necessary because at no time has the APA membership been allowed due process (resolution, survey, referendum) regarding any type of "merger" putting individual pilots at risk.

Such unilateral action by the APA Board of Directors is unprecedented and undemocratic and ultimately disingenuous: while the APA leadership implies to the UCC that they have membership sanction for their merger plans, the fact is the issue of a merger has never been addressed by the APA membership.

You have a right to have your say.

To sign the letter to the UCC below, go to http://youraparights.bravesites.com/

Members of the UCC:

It has been our experience as American Airlines pilots that seniority mergers seldom result in other than a divided workforce with serious inequities perceived by both sides and further, it is impossible to ensure against the possible unforeseen events related to the complex airline industry that can have calamitous and far-reaching consequences for pilots in a merged airline.

This is particularly true when it comes to USAir which according to their own pilots, has not resolved their own internal seniority merger issues even after years of trying.

You should also know that the option of a merger was never put before the APA membership in any due process such as a referendum or member vote of any kind, and what some are calling "APA support" for a merger with USAir has neither rank-and-file endorsement nor any official membership sanction.

We are all members in good standing of the Allied Pilots Association with concern for our union and our careers, and the right to be heard on this most important issue which has never been brought before the membership for any vote.

Therefore, any assumption that the pilots of American Airlines are all in favor of a merger with USAir is both premature and unfounded.

[signed]

Your voice can and will be heard by the UCC

 

[crazystnic]

Another reason PBS sucks.. too much room for playing with the numbers.






Articles

West PBS Mis-Award Settlement

Details Created on Friday, 23 November 2012 11:37
Just minutes before the deadline for November 2012 PBS lines to be final in Maestro, the pilot members of the PBS Committee discovered that numerous pilots who would end up with reserve lines, and who also had vacation near Thanksgiving Day had been able to incorrectly select Thanksgiving as a Golden Day.
Section 25.B.2 of the West Contract says:
A reserve Pilot with vacation scheduled in the bid period may place any combination of up to four (4) Golden Days (GD) immediately prior to or immediately following the reserve Pilot’s vacation block, except on a Holiday. The Pilot shall elect such placement of the Golden Days (GD) through PBS, which shall be assigned as a planned absence(s) prior to the bid award.
By the time we had determined the extent of the problem, the deadline for final line publication was past. PBS Committee Chairman Dave Weeks immediately contacted the Company to alert them to the problem. It was clear this was a major problem. All parties were dismayed to discover that the problem of erroneous GD selection adjacent to RV vacation also affected previous 2012 Holiday months.
When some Reserve pilots are incorrectly allowed to NOT work on Thanksgiving, other Reserve pilots, many of them more senior, have to work on that day.
Our two immediate priorities were to figure out how to eliminate the incorrect Thanksgiving as GD selection, and then re-run the awards to determine who really should have a GD or DO on Thanksgiving, and who should have RV on Thanksgiving.
This was not as easy as it sounds, as neither the PBS Desk nor the PBS Committee Chairman has the ability to edit pilot bids. Vendor Support was immediately notified, but Support cannot edit pilot bids, and problem had to be escalated to high levels to have programmers remove the incorrect selection of Thanksgiving as GD for pilots with vacation near Thanksgiving.
By the time Vendor Support had edited the bids and re-run the awards, it was October 23rd. We determined that 11 Airbus Captains, 7 Airbus First Officers, and 2 757 First Officers who had RV on Thanksgiving should have been awarded a DO or GD on Thanksgiving.
As PBS Committee Chairman, I then contacted Grievance Committee Vice Chairman Jeff Koontz. Over the next several days, we discussed our options. We knew we were looking at a mis-award that was clearly within 25.H.6.a(iii) of the Contract 2004, and therefore entitled to the remedy in 25.H.6.c(iii).
Jeff’s concern was the number of arbitrations already scheduled well into 2013. Particularly, we have the ACARS arbitration scheduled for April of 2013 and the LOA5 LAS Base Closure arbitration scheduled for May of 2013. Sprinkled throughout January to September 2013 are individual contract arbitrations and discipline arbitrations. Getting these arbitrations scheduled has been tricky, and Jeff’s concern was upsetting the schedule on many issues in order to make room for an expedited arbitration on one PBS mis-award. He felt the best course of action was to seek a settlement and if one is not forthcoming, then to take on the task of adding another arbitration to the schedule.
To their credit, the Company stepped up and agreed to try to seek a settlement before resorting to the grievance process. We all agreed to focus on the problem with the November bid, and to pursue a remedy for the affected pilots collectively. We also agreed to examine previous Holiday bids after this Thanksgiving error was resolved. Our negotiations with Crew Resources representatives were frank and open. The Company never attempted to dodge the facts, nor did they stonewall the discussions. Both Jeff Koontz and David Weeks were pleasantly surprised at how straightforward and honest the negotiations were.
At the end of negotiations, we reached an agreement where the affected pilots (those who were incorrectly awarded RV on Thanksgiving) would still work on Thanksgiving, but they would be paid a cash payout of 5:15 at incentive rates (150%), or 7.875 hours of pay (no credit). Jeff Koontz pushed hard to try to get a pilot option of working on Thanksgiving and being paid extra, or having a GD on Thanksgiving Day and not being paid extra, but the Company would not agree to that. Their position was that that Crew Scheduling did not get the desired number of RVs over the holiday, and they could not afford a 4 or 5 day RV block over the 22nd broken in two. We pondered refusing the Company offer, but two factors militated heavily in favor of agreeing. The first factor is the scheduling of another arbitration as discussed above. The second was that the remedy being offered was the only conceivable remedy for violations in months past. In other words, when we look at the previous months, we cannot now go back and substitute a GD or DO for say, July 4th because it is too late, and the only realistic remedy for previous months would be exactly what the Company was offering for November.
While it appears the error is the vendor's responsibility, new procedures have been put in place to prevent this from happening again.
In the near future, we will be re-running past 2012 holiday months, and we will negotiate a fair and equitable remedy for those reserve pilots who incorrectly were awarded RV on holidays due to other RV pilots with vacation incorrectly being able to force Golden Days on holidays. As with the November mis-award, the Grievance Committee will attempt to craft a fair and equitable settlement without resorting to the formal grievance process. In the event this cannot be done, a BPR grievance will be filed
Signed,
David Weeks PBS Committee chairman
Jeff Koontz USAPA Grievance Vice-Chairman

 

[crazystnic]

The award was basically the same as the Shuttle award and the Delta Nothwest award, were those unfair too?

the award was no where near the shuttle award... I was shuttle and lost 9 months of time with NIC 1.

I lost 17 years with the NIC 2...

Big Fing difference...

 

[Graceson]

Dave,

Nearly any numbered post, on any page, under any topic might might violate strict corporate professional and ethical policies since this forum is almost exclusively airline related. Though your views and beliefs may not violate reason and prejudice, association and support of those who do could be problematic. If you search, you'll find instances of this in court transcripts.

Professional associations recognize this vulnerability of guilt and password protect their forums from pedestrian liability while strictly enforcing ethical and professional standards where extreme views are accountable to the named individual and not the membership by association.

It would be manly to be accountable for, support, and presumably condone the reasonable as well as extreme views of yourself as wellthe as those of associates within the formal or loose structure of your organization, but openly embrasing that assumption without protest or explicit rejection

 

[end_of_alpa]

I am Dave Simmons. A PHX based pilot on the Airbus, and a current PHX representative. It is my goal to represent my PHX based pilots to the best of my ability.

It is my agrument that simply changing the name of the CBA & its Constitution & Bylaws does not allow the new CBA to cherry pick what portions of the contracts, letters of agreements & side letters that it wishes to follow. The Nicolau seniority list is the only existing legal seniority list, and IMHO it will be the only one used in a JCBA within our organization and/or with any merger parnter. Contrary to the exclamation "We've WON!!", you have won delay and nothing else. Further, you have most certainly lost countless monies, benefits and time off.

So how about it cyber-kiddies? Who be you? I could guess, but let's face it.....your monikers aren't nearly as much a give away as an e-mail address.

Well Dave, let me add this. I first know why you're on THIS board and not your own or even discussing it with east pilots in general: you're frustrated by the process and time and toll it is taking for you to achieve your goal of establishing a seniority list that can't be voted in.

I know the BPR, USAPA and the company monitor this forum, along with probably the APA which is getting the idea we're no good for them and its showing.

As "you and yours" sit in PHX this holiday and contemplate our predicament how is serving the constituents you represent when you simply take a stand in the extreme face of reality? Will you lose your representative position if you support a longevity based list? You use it on the West, although it's working in reverse for PHX based pilots.

I have been asked by several pilots out on the street if I will give them a recommendation to us airways for a job.

Remember the "pull your hand out of the bucket of water and see how fast the hole disappears? It will happen in SPADES here.

All the pilots NEED to recall the leadership of USAPA (the four horsemen) and get back to what we ALL want. Seniority first before a contract. There is NO PATH to labor harmony without a seniority solution.

Second, we need to have a Constitutional convention to revise the Constitution and Bylaws
(That's what I wanted to do after USAPA was formed but Bradford didn't now how to do it since Steve doesn't know about leadership.)

Third, the elimination of a professional professional negotiator. The pilots will ultimately decide the value of the contract and vote accordingly. This provision never worked and it never will. The company has money and benefits. We have labor. What will a pro keep from them is they don't give it to us and in any case the company knows under the RLA we're bound to work in any case.

Roland believes that McCaskill-Bond will be last. I vehemently disagree and so does the growing list of APA pilots. SWA didn't use it in their merger with AirTran and we all know why. Blackmail. SWA was going to bleed em empty if they didn't agree. Maybe US Airways management should have taken that approach.

How about a seniority list that establishes measurable objective standards, Dave?

This tripe about "we have no one to represent the west when USAPA got in" is a falsehood. You and the other two guys your with are the official representatives and you let Eric run your lives. Time to start representing all the pilots as a whole....not just the narrow view ALPA carved out.

BTW your "legal position" is an opinion. One appeal and one district court which stated its judgment for count two in USAPA's favor with the addition of "legitimate union purpose" is like stating black letter law....it's obvious and unnecessary to the judgment.

Last, but not least, is that PHX is a weak hub and is overstaffed. I know your "constituents" want to cherry pick crew news videos but lets face it.....this company is not expanding PHX anytime in the next few years and the position of the "constituents" are starting to come east at the bottom of the list. Do you still represent them?

How about a real top down reality check.

For the east pilots we need to get rid of the leadership of this union. They are a train wreck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Dave,

Nearly any numbered post, on any page, under any topic might might violate strict corporate professional and ethical policies since this forum is almost exclusively airline related. Though your views and beliefs may not violate reason and prejudice, association and support of those who do could be problematic. If you search, you'll find instances of this in court transcripts.

Professional associations recognize this vulnerability of guilt and password protect their forums from pedestrian liability while strictly enforcing ethical and professional standards where extreme views are accountable to the named individual and not the membership by association.

It would be manly to be accountable for, support, and presumably condone the reasonable as well as extreme views of yourself as wellthe as those of associates within the formal or loose structure of your organization, but openly embrasing that assumption without protest or explicit rejection

You know, I actually got this! I was adamantly opposed to USAPA having a private web board from the beginning and I still do. I actually agree with the moderators here to open the board up and let the guys vent instead of severely restricting it. There is only one problem is the public sees the discourse and winces in disgust at times. Maybe this is good!

However, Dave outed himself and he has to be accountable for his actions as a BPR rep, an AOL rep and a pilot.

I'm glad Dave is here....maybe Roger and John would like to join in.

 

[end_of_alpa]

the award was no where near the shuttle award... I was shuttle and lost 9 months of time with NIC 1.

I lost 17 years with the NIC 2...

Big Fing difference...

And there you have it from someone on the shuttle who was actually there, D.E.

 

[luvthe9]

Wanting us accept conditions totally unacceptable to him, so he can be number 1 in PHX his last 2 years! PATHETIC!

But remember, DOH was fine for him when we aquired PSA, I think he wants his 1 hour commute from SAN and just screw the junior guys..

 

[Piedmont1984]

end_of_alpa

Lets not forget that where we were a year ago is exactly where our previous leadership took us. We were slapped with a permanent injunction and contract negotiations were parked.The buck stops at the HQ building.

So now we've had a taste of both good cop and bad cop leadership styles with respect to management. The problem is that we are a house divided. We need a smart cop. Our success in keeping the Nic at bay comes at the cost of LOA93. Simple - end of story.

If a longevity based solution to seniority is truly our goal, then that can be achieved without stubbornly clinging to DOH. If I were a moderate West pilot, the USAPA C&R's would have very little value in the event of a major downsizing in PHX. Both USAPA leaderships have approached the west in an effort to explore a compromise solution. What has USAPA offered as a compromise?

Dave

Realpolitik is a term which describes a process by which realistic solutions are sought out by reasonable parties in the context and backdrop of actual conditions and circumstances which exist at the time.

Your group won't let go of the Nic. You've yoked yourselves to an idealogical position and refuse to recognize the reality of where we are. It is no longer 2007, the financial snapshot taken several years ago which formed the basis for Nicolau's flawed list was wholly inadequate and misleading.

Compromise in the context of realpolitik means moving off our currently staked out positions, not clinging to outdated and unworkable idealogical ones.

 

[nevergiveup]

I'm a little weary of the faceless volley back & forth. You east folk have even outed some of your own that oppose your date of hire land grab.

Many of you have guessed correctly. I have the same moniker that I use everywhere: Cactusboy53. It's part of my e-mail address.

I am Dave Simmons. A PHX based pilot on the Airbus, and a current PHX representative. It is my goal to represent my PHX based pilots to the best of my ability.

It is my agrument that simply changing the name of the CBA & its Constitution & Bylaws does not allow the new CBA to cherry pick what portions of the contracts, letters of agreements & side letters that it wishes to follow. The Nicolau seniority list is the only existing legal seniority list, and IMHO it will be the only one used in a JCBA within our organization and/or with any merger parnter. Contrary to the exclamation "We've WON!!", you have won delay and nothing else. Further, you have most certainly lost countless monies, benefits and time off.

So how about it cyber-kiddies? Who be you? I could guess, but let's face it.....your monikers aren't nearly as much a give away as an e-mail address.

Who is:

• MUTATIS MUTANDIS
• luvthe9
• Claxon
• nevergiveup
• EastUS1
• A320 Driver
• end_of_alpa
• nycbusdriver
• Phoenix
• Walmartgreeter

Step up. Be a man (or woman) and claim your bad-self. We already know how right you are, tell us who you are. Don't be affraid. Hiding behind a keyboard no way to go through life.

Dave

I'm Spartacus!

 

[electricjet98]

So...You're up for my long-established wager then? 😉 "Step up. Be a man". PM if interested. Minor recreation aloft should prove no issue for a Biblical Hero, "the apple of God's eye" and "Hiding behind a keyboard no way to go through life." 😉

Mouthy, petty little politicians bore me to tears.

Does a 05/06/1986 DOH still give you a B-767 right seat...or has your efforts of maintaining bottom-of-the-barrel loa93 and laughing-stock of the industry status allowed you to move up in the world?

 

[N924PS]

Well Dave, let me add this. I first know why you're on THIS board and not your own or even discussing it with east pilots in general: you're frustrated by the process and time and toll it is taking for you to achieve your goal of establishing a seniority list that can't be voted in.

I know the BPR, USAPA and the company monitor this forum, along with probably the APA which is getting the idea we're no good for them and its showing.

As "you and yours" sit in PHX this holiday and contemplate our predicament how is serving the constituents you represent when you simply take a stand in the extreme face of reality? Will you lose your representative position if you support a longevity based list? You use it on the West, although it's working in reverse for PHX based pilots.

I have been asked by several pilots out on the street if I will give them a recommendation to us airways for a job.

Remember the "pull your hand out of the bucket of water and see how fast the hole disappears? It will happen in SPADES here.

All the pilots NEED to recall the leadership of USAPA (the four horsemen) and get back to what we ALL want. Seniority first before a contract. There is NO PATH to labor harmony without a seniority solution.

Second, we need to have a Constitutional convention to revise the Constitution and Bylaws
(That's what I wanted to do after USAPA was formed but Bradford didn't now how to do it since Steve doesn't know about leadership.)

Third, the elimination of a professional professional negotiator. The pilots will ultimately decide the value of the contract and vote accordingly. This provision never worked and it never will. The company has money and benefits. We have labor. What will a pro keep from them is they don't give it to us and in any case the company knows under the RLA we're bound to work in any case.

Roland believes that McCaskill-Bond will be last. I vehemently disagree and so does the growing list of APA pilots. SWA didn't use it in their merger with AirTran and we all know why. Blackmail. SWA was going to bleed em empty if they didn't agree. Maybe US Airways management should have taken that approach.

How about a seniority list that establishes measurable objective standards, Dave?

This tripe about "we have no one to represent the west when USAPA got in" is a falsehood. You and the other two guys your with are the official representatives and you let Eric run your lives. Time to start representing all the pilots as a whole....not just the narrow view ALPA carved out.

BTW your "legal position" is an opinion. One appeal and one district court which stated its judgment for count two in USAPA's favor with the addition of "legitimate union purpose" is like stating black letter law....it's obvious and unnecessary to the judgment.

Last, but not least, is that PHX is a weak hub and is overstaffed. I know your "constituents" want to cherry pick crew news videos but lets face it.....this company is not expanding PHX anytime in the next few years and the position of the "constituents" are starting to come east at the bottom of the list. Do you still represent them?

How about a real top down reality check.

For the east pilots we need to get rid of the leadership of this union. They are a train wreck.

And you wonder why you couldn't get elected to the BPR?