OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

You and yours certainly throw "captain" around like a toy. Reference Auxler and Anger video tapes.
A group with reality would never discount another's years of service to the SAME COMPANY fly junior to anyone else short of that individuals choice.

I was hired in 87 and I would be junior to the recalled west pilot I flew with the other day.

Told him I'd rather scab than fly junior to him. My bloods as red as his, why should he get special credit for his years over mine?

I call BS on this statement.

You were hired in 87 and 81.9% on a stand alone list. Number 2600 out of 3176 active pilots.

Nicolau placed you 80.6%. You gain a little under Nicolau.

By DOH you would go from 81.9% to around 41% with only 250 west pilots senior to you. Talk about a windfall.

Slotting you in at P2725. Dave O'Dell is P2174. A difference of around 400 numbers. The west did not furlough or transfer anywhere near 400 pilots. The most senior west pilot listed as furloughed is 3054. So no way the guy you flew with was going to be senior to you on the Nicolau list.

BTW it was a SENIORITY integration not a how many years have you been here integration.

 

[end_of_alpa]

end_of_alpa

Lets not forget that where we were a year ago is exactly where our previous leadership took us. We were slapped with a permanent injunction and contract negotiations were parked.The buck stops at the HQ building.

So now we've had a taste of both good cop and bad cop leadership styles with respect to management. The problem is that we are a house divided. We need a smart cop. Our success in keeping the Nic at bay comes at the cost of LOA93. Simple - end of story.

If a longevity based solution to seniority is truly our goal, then that can be achieved without stubbornly clinging to DOH. If I were a moderate West pilot, the USAPA C&R's would have very little value in the event of a major downsizing in PHX. Both USAPA leaderships have approached the west in an effort to explore a compromise solution. What has USAPA offered as a compromise?

Dave

Realpolitik is a term which describes a process by which realistic solutions are sought out by reasonable parties in the context and backdrop of actual conditions and circumstances which exist at the time.

Your group won't let go of the Nic. You've yoked yourselves to an idealogical position and refuse to recognize the reality of where we are. It is no longer 2007, the financial snapshot taken several years ago which formed the basis for Nicolau's flawed list was wholly inadequate and misleading.

Compromise in the context of realpolitik means moving off our currently staked out positions, not clinging to outdated and unworkable idealogical ones.

I agree wholeheartedly. Remember I was the ONLY founder in the campaign last spring talking about that very thing and look how many votes I got. The rank and file voted name recognition. Gary Hummel had no experience starting an organization and now yet runs it. Someone who has no understanding of the legal aspect.

I'm going out on a limb here and reveal two things.

First, I voted for Gary in the election. Why? i would have voted for Steve Sevier but nobody knew who he was and secondly he didnt really take it seriously. I DIDN'T vote for Bill because I believed he represented the Charlotte pilots the best and I really thought that either Steve or myself would have keep Gary on track to do the work the BPR tasks them with. I was WRONG with Steve. He supported a seniority solution first and now supports a contract solution. THAT WILL NEVER WORK!
I also thought Gary would have been more communicative with the pilots but instead has been talking to the company behind everyones backs. That is contrary to the Constitution. In fact, the position that Gary occupied before President shouldnt even be here but was put in at the last minute. BAD LAW!

Secondly, and here is the shocker.....I RESIGNED MY UNION MEMBERSHIP LAST MONTH AFTER THE CHARLOTTE DOMICLE MEETING. That's right, the founder quit the union. WHY?

Because Szymanski and Roland has done what we worked so hard to prevent: THE LAWYERS, AGAIN, RUN OUR UNION. Pat and Roland has been advised by the leadership to abandon what all of us want solved...a SENIORITY solution...and in its place supporting a CONTRACT solution. That serves no one!

What I advocated then I still advocate now is the same....a Seniority solution over a contract solution by establishing measurable, objective standards we as pilots can all agree upon, not some elusive "career expectation, fair and equitable" solution that changes with the wind. Something that maybe ALL labor can observe that stands on the merits.

BTW, I have to reapply for membership at the next meeting if I want back in. Funny I quit ALPA before LOA 93 because they supported us STANDING UP FOR FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY so we can get prefferential hiring at ALPA carriers at the bottom of the list and we chose a different path: IT'S BETTER TO RULE IN HELL THEN SERVE IN HEAVEN". Plus the lawyers advised us on our retirement after the first backruptcy and we listened instead of annuitizing it. The rest is history.

The union is the pilots, OUR pilots and changing the name has NO BEARING on whether we change names, it's changing pilots that's the problem. Time will solve the issue, but at what cost?

I believed two things when Scott Peterson and I wrote the Constituion: We didn't need the DOH provision and we didn't need the Professional negotiator. After fives years of USAPA I was proven right so far and if we DO merge with American and APA takes over then all we worked on is for naught in any case and we fight in the courts (again).

Fix it now or it WILL fix itself.

 

[end_of_alpa]

And you wonder why you couldn't get elected to the BPR?

I ran for VP...not the BPR.

And you wonder why I keep making my point with guys like you....you don't even KNOW what your talking about. Apathy and the "I got mine" crowd speaks again from a point of authority....what a joke. Next time why don't you actually read what I wrote.

I rest my case....

P.S. Since your PSA, why don't YOU reveal your name?

 

[end_of_alpa]

I call BS on this statement.

You were hired in 87 and 81.9% on a stand alone list. Number 2600 out of 3176 active pilots.

Nicolau placed you 80.6%. You gain a little under Nicolau.

By DOH you would go from 81.9% to around 41% with only 250 west pilots senior to you. Talk about a windfall.

Slotting you in at P2725. Dave O'Dell is P2174. A difference of around 400 numbers. The west did not furlough or transfer anywhere near 400 pilots. The most senior west pilot listed as furloughed is 3054. So no way the guy you flew with was going to be senior to you on the Nicolau list.

BTW it was a SENIORITY integration not a how many years have you been here integration.

He told me the year he was hired and I looked it up. It was close if not reverse. No matter, Dave O'Dell is JUNIOR to me over here since his recall East but SENIOR to me according to your math.

IT AIN'T HAPPENING.

No matter, you just keep your stand. I'M NOT WORKING ON A PERCENTAGE BASIS.

You're welcome to strike over there if you like. Enjoy the stagnation and tilting at windmills. When you and your reps decide they have to move in a different direction rather than DOWN we might get somewhere.

BTW, if you don't care about years then I don't either.

Lets keep up the differences...it will resolve itself eventually.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Does a 05/06/1986 DOH still give you a B-767 right seat...or has your efforts of maintaining bottom-of-the-barrel loa93 and laughing-stock of the industry status allowed you to move up in the world?

Scorched earth policy is no policy. If we can't have it then you can't either.

It seems that the MOST of those whom complain are the most JUNIOR of the West. I know the senior speak up but they are the LEAST effective.

 

[nevergiveup]

I ran for VP...not the BPR.

And you wonder why I keep making my point with guys like you....you don't even KNOW what your talking about. Apathy and the "I got mine" crowd speaks again from a point of authority....what a joke. Next time why don't you actually read what I wrote.

I rest my case....

P.S. Since your PSA, why don't YOU reveal your name?

Sounds like the west call, "I got mine and I want yours too!"

 

[Phoenix]

1) You throw the term "seniority" and the many more work years of others beyond yourself around in similar fashion.
2) None, no one, not anybody has intruded into your magnificent little desert empire and displaced any of you. It's not anyone's problem but yours that PHX isn't turning out to be the powerhouse you previously fantasized it to be. The "evil easties", "eastholes", whatever, would have happily provided for those in PHX to bid east, based on DOH. How's the whole "Army" ahem, of "Leonidas" bit been helping you?

"career expectations"? Thanks for the Joke of the Day. 😉 How are all those and any other childish fantasies you may cherish playing out for you in the real world?

But, but, but... they religiously single engine taxi and NEVER use the APU...

 

[cactusboy53]

end_of_alpa

Lets not forget that where we were a year ago is exactly where our previous leadership took us. We were slapped with a permanent injunction and contract negotiations were parked.The buck stops at the HQ building.

So now we've had a taste of both good cop and bad cop leadership styles with respect to management. The problem is that we are a house divided. We need a smart cop. Our success in keeping the Nic at bay comes at the cost of LOA93. Simple - end of story.

If a longevity based solution to seniority is truly our goal, then that can be achieved without stubbornly clinging to DOH. If I were a moderate West pilot, the USAPA C&R's would have very little value in the event of a major downsizing in PHX. Both USAPA leaderships have approached the west in an effort to explore a compromise solution. What has USAPA offered as a compromise?

Dave

Realpolitik is a term which describes a process by which realistic solutions are sought out by reasonable parties in the context and backdrop of actual conditions and circumstances which exist at the time.

Your group won't let go of the Nic. You've yoked yourselves to an idealogical position and refuse to recognize the reality of where we are. It is no longer 2007, the financial snapshot taken several years ago which formed the basis for Nicolau's flawed list was wholly inadequate and misleading.

Compromise in the context of realpolitik means moving off our currently staked out positions, not clinging to outdated and unworkable idealogical ones.

Not yolked to the Nic, agreed as a party to the product of a merger process from the previous CBA.

Let's move on and put your DOH list forward and see what happens. Time's a wastin'

 

[cleardirect]

Lets start a new blame thread: found out there is a movement at APA to a vote for APA pilots whether they want to merge or not. So who's to blame for them not wanting to merge with us?

"Christopher Manno
DFW/CA/737/DOM
Emp: 017656
Sen: 835

Total Posts: 2,059
Last Post: 11/24/2012

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We are closing in on our goal of what will be unavoidably considered a large and credible number of signatures and would like to push the total over the top, with delivery to 4 UCC members this weekend.

If you'd like to join the multitude of APA members in good standing who have signed this letter (details below), please do so and share the link with other crewmembers.

Here is the information:

Join the growing number of APA pilots finally having their say about the dangerous ramifications of a seniority merger with the pilots of USAir by signing the letter to the UCC.

This immediate action is necessary because at no time has the APA membership been allowed due process (resolution, survey, referendum) regarding any type of "merger" putting individual pilots at risk.

Such unilateral action by the APA Board of Directors is unprecedented and undemocratic and ultimately disingenuous: while the APA leadership implies to the UCC that they have membership sanction for their merger plans, the fact is the issue of a merger has never been addressed by the APA membership.

You have a right to have your say.

To sign the letter to the UCC below, go to http://youraparights.bravesites.com/

Members of the UCC:

It has been our experience as American Airlines pilots that seniority mergers seldom result in other than a divided workforce with serious inequities perceived by both sides and further, it is impossible to ensure against the possible unforeseen events related to the complex airline industry that can have calamitous and far-reaching consequences for pilots in a merged airline.

This is particularly true when it comes to USAir which according to their own pilots, has not resolved their own internal seniority merger issues even after years of trying.

You should also know that the option of a merger was never put before the APA membership in any due process such as a referendum or member vote of any kind, and what some are calling "APA support" for a merger with USAir has neither rank-and-file endorsement nor any official membership sanction.

We are all members in good standing of the Allied Pilots Association with concern for our union and our careers, and the right to be heard on this most important issue which has never been brought before the membership for any vote.

Therefore, any assumption that the pilots of American Airlines are all in favor of a merger with USAir is both premature and unfounded.

[signed]

Your voice can and will be heard by the UCC

Well isn't that cute.

Another airline union that wants nothing to do with east pilots.

It is a feel good letter, emotional but with no value at all. The UCC could care less about what the rank and file did or did not get to vote on or have a voice in. The leadership agreed to this. The legal bargaining agent made a deal for the rank and file members. That has legal standing. Just like when ALPA made a deal for arbitration.

This letter reminds of the east attitude when we merged. In 2005 you all knew you were done and gone. Right after the merger east pilots were thanking west pilots for saving them. I had an AA pilot last month on the jump seat thank me for saving his job.

When you are looking at liquidation or an 1113 contract cut people will look for any lifeline. Parker threw it to them. The APA got a better deal because of that lifeline. Without that lifeline the APA would not have had any leverage to get a better deal than the one american imposed on them. Now that they are out of danger they don't think they need help anymore. Thus the letter, US Airways go away. That same attitude with east pilots. Thanks for filling up the cash register and keeping the airline afloat now sell off the west and Parker you can go away.

 

[Graceson]

I call BS on this statement.

You were hired in 87 and 81.9% on a stand alone list. Number 2600 out of 3176 active pilots.

Nicolau placed you 80.6%. You gain a little under Nicolau.

By DOH you would go from 81.9% to around 41% with only 250 west pilots senior to you. Talk about a windfall.

A fair analysis. Objective.

Using these filters, what are the stand alone and combined list metrics for progression considering attrition.

 

[nevergiveup]

Well isn't that cute.

Another airline union that wants nothing to do with east pilots.

It is a feel good letter, emotional but with no value at all. The UCC could care less about what the rank and file did or did not get to vote on or have a voice in. The leadership agreed to this. The legal bargaining agent made a deal for the rank and file members. That has legal standing. Just like when ALPA made a deal for arbitration.

This letter reminds of the east attitude when we merged. In 2005 you all knew you were done and gone. Right after the merger east pilots were thanking west pilots for saving them. I had an AA pilot last month on the jump seat thank me for saving his job.

When you are looking at liquidation or an 1113 contract cut people will look for any lifeline. Parker threw it to them. The APA got a better deal because of that lifeline. Without that lifeline the APA would not have had any leverage to get a better deal than the one american imposed on them. Now that they are out of danger they don't think they need help anymore. Thus the letter, US Airways go away. That same attitude with east pilots. Thanks for filling up the cash register and keeping the airline afloat now sell off the west and Parker you can go away.

Too much turkey?

 

[cleardirect]

A fair analysis. Objective.

Using these filters, what are the stand alone and combined list metrics for progression considering attrition.

Stand alone would have been 100% attrition in 2005 for east pilots.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Not yolked to the Nic, agreed as a party to the product of a merger process from the previous CBA.

Let's move on and put your DOH list forward and see what happens. Time's a wastin'

Your legal argument is wrong. Rank and file employees are not a party.

I see my writing fell on deaf ears. And you wonder why we keep going in circles...we are dogs chasing its own tail. Meanwhile, Rome (PHX) burns. Keep fiddling Nero.

 

[Phoenix]

...

How come you support the leadership instead of telling them and Wilder that until THE COURTS settle the seniority issue once and for all there is no contract?

Would you support a recall of ALL four officers of USAPA in support for leadership that will say there is NO list until the courts settle the list? ..

Wait for the courts to decide it? Which court do you suggest we wait to hear back from?

It seems to me folks are upset that nothing is happening (the company just stalls and eventually it always works) .. once again pilots turn the guns inward to see who is at fault for making the company ignore us, until we negotiate with ourselves to the lowest wages in the industry.

The company and USAPA have more than enough legal latitude to make a deal whenever the company wants to make one. Why on earth does anyone have any hope that the courts will provide a different answer than was provided to AOL and to the company?

Are you suggesting that since AOL, and the Company have failed to get the courts to pick DOH or NIic, it is now left to USAPA to take it, again, to the courts to demand that "the courts" pick?

 

[Graceson]

Stand alone would have been 100% attrition in 2005 for east pilots.

So your previous fair and objective analysis was flawed. Should we exclude any analysis you offer because of this flaw.