OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Wow, the westies are really coming unglued, worst I've seen in quite awhile. Where is our potty mouth abusive JJ, I for sure thought he would be on.

I have those initials.....I can talk dirty if you like! VBG ;-)

 

[traderjake]

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If you fly the way you teach you may wish to rethink your life.

What else can I teach you?

Apparently not how to use quote tags.

 

[Metroyet]

Of course Cleary never took a vacation. How else would he have ever found the time to lose Addington, get parked, and enjoin the union via injunction? Do tell...what is the "ailment" suffered by poor Kim Jong Cleary? Honestly, his "medical condition" reads a lot like taking his ball and going home. I wonder where the coward scab got that idea?

 

[cleardirect]

end_of_alpa, on 26 November 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:
Like i thought. No answer.

And no, I'm not contributing to your already weak legal foundation. Your community college may offer a basic course in Labor Law 101 or Contracts 100.

Enjoy class.

You just can't teach some people.

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View Postcleardirect, on 26 November 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Federal law has chosen arbitration as the method to settle seniority.


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View Postend_of_alpa, on 26 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:
Cite the case and/or law.



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Really? Are you that out of touch and clueless. You don't know the answer to your question?

If you can't figure out the basics you are a waste of time to try and educate.

The legislation, known as the McCaskill-Bond statute, was signed into law in December 2007 and is codified at 49 U.S.C. § 42112.

Federal law. Arbitration is used to settle seniority.

Are we done here?
1
What is usapa's legitimate union purpose; for anything?
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If you fly the way you teach you may wish to rethink your life.

McCaskill-Bond doesn't apply to our situation.

What else can I teach you?

Missed it again.

The original point since you forgot.

end_of_alpa, on 25 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Arbitration does NOT solve intra-union differences and it never will. Look at Hostess, the bakers walked out and put everyone else on the street. No arbitration there. George Nicolau was NOT a "fellow" judge. RLA arbitration is between the company and the employees...not between employees themselves.

The so called arbitration is nothing more than a proposal and that is why I firmly believe that we argue this matter in court in front of Silver....who, BTW did not favor your position. Remember, count II? Retread the judgment. The order (discussion) is dicta....save your breath.

Arbitration has ALWAYS solved intra union disputes. You east pilots just did not like the outcome of this particular one.

Arbitration is used with individuals.
Arbitration is used between corporations.
Arbitration is used in the court system.
Arbitration is used under RLA.
Arbitration is now federal law to resolve inter union seniority.

Arbitration is supposed to KEEP the union out of court. As we are learning going to court is very time consuming and expensive. Arbitration is designed to avoid that by ageeing to a process and living with the result.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Missed it again.

The original point since you forgot.

I didn't forget.....tilting at windmills.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Of course Cleary never took a vacation. How else would he have ever found the time to lose Addington, get parked, and enjoin the union via injunction? Do tell...what is the "ailment" suffered by poor Kim Jong Cleary? Honestly, his "medical condition" reads a lot like taking his ball and going home. I wonder where the coward scab got that idea?

Go rethink your non-aviation life as a pilot wannabe.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Apparently not how to use quote tags.

You got the message....besides the software wouldn't quote it correctly and I didn't want to waste time writing an explanation like this one, D.E.

So much for saving the effort.

 

[mrbreeze]

Really! You want to use safety as criteria for seniority integration.

I agree. Let's go. Let's put the airline that crashed 5 in 5 years against the safest airline with NO fatal crashes. I would love to make that case.

Where you go off the beam id trying to equate time to safety. You guys do have more time yet are arguably the most unsafe.

Clear,

I am so tired of hearing your insulting BS spin on the topic of safety. I know you get off on trying to insult the East pilots, but you are out of line here.

YOU ARE COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES AND TRYING TO SPIN IT LIKE THE WEST PILOTS ARE SAFER, along with insulting the East in a pissing match that you can't win.

1.....You guys probably had 1/4 the number of aircraft the East were operating before 9/11.

2.....The number of flights you were operating out West were probably fewer than 1/5 of what the East were operating out of the Northeast Corridor.

3.....The stress of multiple TO's and Landings in the NE was much more than the West.

4.....Most importantly, the weather difference.....well, use your imagination.

So, knock it off....you are out of line on this topic. Your spin sucks and doesn't do a thing to help resolve our differences.

breeze

 

[nevergiveup]

If American has pilots on furlough when/if we merge then, yes, those should be below the very bottom active US Airways pilot.

If American has pilots on furlough when/if we merge then, yes, those should be below the very bottom active US Airways pilot.

Does this apply to west furloughees as well?

 

[luvthe9]

You guys are going to be shccked by the bid results, and the next one will be even better. Wait till you see how many captain upgrades there are. The gates just opened on the 65 year old guys. Another bid coming on the heels of this one. They are far behind in CLT as far as instructors go, and sim time.
It was a friend in PHX who actually did the talking to ISOM at your crew room on Thanksgiving,It was in the room upstairs by B4. He was merely being honest and rehashed what he already told you guys in the crew news. PHX is just stagnant. Everyone knows you guys are flying 24% of east flying just to keep you in the game. The reality is you are hanging it out there in a potential merger.
Get ready for the bid results! Congrats in advance to all the East F/O s who are getting their rightful spots back. More to come.

Dave O Dell is going to love the attrition, and he is welcome to join us for good!

 

[end_of_alpa]

You guys are going to be shccked by the bid results, and the next one will be even better. Wait till you see how many captain upgrades there are. The gates just opened on the 65 year old guys. Another bid coming on the heels of this one. They are far behind in CLT as far as instructors go, and sim time.
It was a friend in PHX who talked to ISOM at your crew room on Thanksgiving, He was merely being honest and rehashed what he already told you guys in the crew news. PHX is just stagnant. Everyone knows you guys are flying 24% of east flying just to keep you in the game. The reality is you are hanging it out there in a potential merger.
Get ready for the bid results! Congrats in advance to all the East F/O s who are getting their rightful spots back. More to come.

Dave O Dell is going to love the attrition, and he is welcome to join us for good!

It's interesting you should bring this up.

I just got done "re-reading" (again and again) Eischens arbitration for Republic/Frontier/Midwest/Lynx. This is the first pilot integration post McCaskill/Bond. I wonder whether we would have been going through these lawsuits had we had him than Nicolau. After contrasting the pictorial visual graph of his integration and the US Airways MEC graphics it really shows not only the differences of the to men's approach to integration it also shows how close the years of service the two main pilots groups...Republic and Frontier, fell.

Here is the kicker: IT ACTUALLY PLACED FURLOUGHED FRONTIER AND MIDWEST PILOTS IN FRONT OF ACTIVE REPUBLIC PILOTS. Yes, it did!

I have a copy of this decision. The Eischen decision has a graphical pattern that actually makes sense. The problem I see with "arbitration" awards is that you have no consistent patterns of understandings with "arbitrations". The Nicolau award was so disparate and historically inaccurate that its no wonder we're at odds.

As a result of this disparate treatment of East pilots we now have what we have always argued we have...accelerated growth on the East and a minority group getting eventually what the company has to give them...stagnant growth in PHX, vulnerable positions in the future and an extremely bleak future. I didn't back then wish it on them, I don't now and I don't know of many pilots who do wish a future that for ALL of us both East and West was a very high certainty of TWO airline extinction.

I wouldn't be sure that Eischen would be one of the arbitrators on the next merger if it happens but if I were the pilots at, say, APA several factors come into play that could give them serious disadvantages in any future merger in this industry.

Note to all: Eischen did NOT group pilots by position and/ or equipment. His tiered structure was broken up into four groups based on the economic positions of the respective carriers before and after and broke them up accordingly.

1. All pilots holding seniority on a list but unavailable to hold a line position on the date of the respective acquisitions (July 31, 2009 for Midwest pilots/October 1, 2009 for the other groups), due to employment as management, military leave of absence or long-term medical leave (on leave or disability on acquisition date and still on such medical leave as of September 1, 2010), were removed from the respective purged and updated pre-merger lists.

2. The first 962 positions on the IMSL were filled with the first 650 Republic pilots and the first 312 Frontier pilots, in a ratio of 650:312, beginning with a Republic pilot.

3. The next 1,155 positions on the IMSL were filled with the next 700 Republic pilots, the remaining 334 Frontier pilots and 121 Midwest pilots, in a ratio of 700:334:121, beginning with a Republic pilot.

4. The next 660 positions on the IMSL were filled with the remaining 559 Republic pilots and 101 Lynx pilots, in a ratio of 559:101, beginning with a Republic pilot.

5. The last 204 positions on the IMSL were filled with the remaining Midwest pilots furloughed prior to June 23, 2009, until all of the respective purged and updated pre-merger lists were exhausted.10

6. Pilots pulled in Paragraph 1 were inserted into the integrated list immediately above the pilot who appeared immediately below that pulled pilot on the pre- integration list.

7. The relative position of each pilot on the pre-merger lists remained unchanged on the IMSL. Pilots hired after October 1, 2009 are to be placed at the end of the IMSL, by date of hire.

This is a model that could work disparate treatment issues but I won't elaborate on the factors I would argue if US Airways/American were to merge. But I do know one thing:

THE USAPA LEADERSHIP IS UNEQUVOCALLY UNPREPARED TO HANDLE IT.

In fact my NEW understanding is that both Roland and Dean have asked Gary to bring DiOreo back because of his extensive East contract knowledge (not to mention that Paul is also an attorney, but maybe I shouldn't mention that since we know how they normally get paid...billable hours). However, Gary has said NO because it may politically OFFEND West pilots.

Just curious, but done the West pilots on here feel offended anyway?

Happy Holidays All!

 

[EastUS1]

Really! You want to use safety as criteria for seniority integration.

I agree. Let's go. Let's put the airline that crashed 5 in 5 years against the safest airline with NO fatal crashes. I would love to make that case.

Where you go off the beam id trying to equate time to safety. You guys do have more time yet are arguably the most unsafe.

http://www.aviation-...ity-mo-pro.html

http://investigative...0913X01603/1/
In pertinent part, the external examination of the airplane revealed lateral skin panel buckling on the sides of the airplane from the aft nosecone area near frame #1, through frame #12, located about 9.5 feet aft. The bottom surface of the airplane's nose was crushed upward a maximum of 12 inches.

Regarding interior structure in the vicinity of the nose gear wheel well, the forward pressure bulkhead was found bent and cracked. The rear pressure bulkhead was bent.............. The first officer stated he instinctively applied maximum brakes with both feet without a request from the captain. The first officer stated that he received no instructions from the captain during the accident sequence.

CAUSE: The captain's failure to maintain directional control and his inadvertent application of asymmetrical engine thrust while attempting to move the #1 thrust lever out of reverse. A factor in the accident was the crew's inadequate coordination and crew resource management.

http://www.cbsnews.c...162-710789.html Shall we even speak of this one? What truly magnificent "judgement" and "professionalism"...words just fail me. I suppose if one's an awesome, AWA "ace"...even flying drunk shouldn't be a problem?

I've no possible doubt that any/all of you AWA triple-jet-"aces", selected by AWA only after turning down NASA's offer of Shuttle Command of course, would have easilly overcome the rudder issue that brought down Flt427, you know? = the "little" problem that resulted in a global modification to the 737 fleet? I'm equally certain that none of you could EVER have crashed in severe wind shear/down drafts/microbursts...as have so many "lesser mortals". Perhaps you should all go bragging to not only every other airline around but all the world's military air forces as well....after all...you're "special". Don't forget to make a special point of addressing the Delta guys regarding windshear/microbursts with that astonishing arrogance of yours. After all: None can ever doubt that "the rest of the world's" pilots hold you AWA kids in utter and reverent awe.

Shall we discuss that engine loss on the airbus that resulted in a pair of your elite aviators actually HOLDING, SINGLE ENGINE for almost an hour, just to get down below "normal" landing weight? Didn't anyone ever tell them that single engine flight in a pax-laden, transport categroy aircraft ain't much in the way of "normal"? Now THERE'S some truly impressive "judgement" in action! Did those wunderkinder of yours never even consider just why the engine failed?...perhaps never even heard of fuel contamination, or have even ANY reasonable concern for just droning along, single engine for so long?

I'd strongly suggest that you GROW UP....but why waste the time, as it's not likely to ever happen.

You're right kid = No fatalities, which ain't your doing. You've just been plain and purely lucky. The Good Lord sometimes sees fit to look over fools and drunkards.

I've lost friends that were certainly my equals or superiors as aviators to whims of the sky and mechanical issues and one to enemy action. If you can't say the same, then you've led a very sheltered and lucky little "life" aloft. Anyone childish enough to believe disasters couldn't happen to them needs their ### kicked and at least a gallon or two more of humility.

 

[end_of_alpa]

http://www.aviation-...ity-mo-pro.html

http://investigative...0913X01603/1/
In pertinent part, the external examination of the airplane revealed lateral skin panel buckling on the sides of the airplane from the aft nosecone area near frame #1, through frame #12, located about 9.5 feet aft. The bottom surface of the airplane's nose was crushed upward a maximum of 12 inches.

Regarding interior structure in the vicinity of the nose gear wheel well, the forward pressure bulkhead was found bent and cracked. The rear pressure bulkhead was bent.............. The first officer stated he instinctively applied maximum brakes with both feet without a request from the captain. The first officer stated that he received no instructions from the captain during the accident sequence.

CAUSE: The captain's failure to maintain directional control and his inadvertent application of asymmetrical engine thrust while attempting to move the #1 thrust lever out of reverse. A factor in the accident was the crew's inadequate coordination and crew resource management.

http://www.cbsnews.c...162-710789.html Shall we even speak of this one? What magnificent "judgement" and "professionalism"...words just fail me.

I've no possible doubt that any/all of you AWA triple-jet-"aces", selected by AWA only after turning down NASA's offer of Shuttle Command of course, would have easilly overcome the rudder issue that brought down Flt427, you know? = the "little" problem that resulted in a global modification to the 737 fleet? and I'm equally certain that none of you could EVER have crashed in severe wind shear/down drafts...as have so many "lesser mortals". Perhaps you should all go bragging to not aonly every other airline around but all the world's military air forces as well....after all...you're "special". Don't forget to make a special point of addressing the Delta guys regarding windshear/microbusrts with that astonishing arrogance of yours.

Shall we discuss that engine loss on the airbus that resulted in a pair of your elite aviators actually HOLDING, SINGLE ENGINE for almost an hour, just to get down below "normal" landing weight? Didn't anyone ever thell them that single engien flight in a pax-laden, transport categroy aircraft ain't much in the way of "normal"? Now THERE'S some truly impressive "judgement" in action!

You're right kid = No fatalities, which ain't your doing. You've just been plain and purely lucky. The Good Lord sometimes sees fit to look over fools and drunkards.

I've lost friends that were my equals or superiors as aviators to whims of the sky and mechanical issues. Anyone childish enough to believe such couldn't happen to themselves needs their ### kicked and at least a gallon or two of humility.

Here, here.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

I am so tired of hearing your insulting BS spin on the topic of safety. I know you get off on trying to insult the East pilots, but you are out of line here.

YOU ARE COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES AND TRYING TO SPIN IT LIKE THE WEST PILOTS ARE SAFER, along with insulting the East in a pissing match that you can't win.

1.....You guys probably had 1/4 the number of aircraft the East were operating before 9/11.

2.....The number of flights you were operating out West were probably fewer than 1/5 of what the East were operating out of the Northeast Corridor.

3.....The stress of multiple TO's and Landings in the NE was much more than the West.

4.....Most importantly, the weather difference.....well, use your imagination.

So, knock it off....you are out of line on this topic. Your spin sucks and doesn't do a thing to help resolve our differences.

breeze

That is all kinds of excuses but none of them avoid the facts there were crashes.

I did not bring up the safety component Jamie did. You guys are so desperate to get out or the Nicolau award that you guys fish around for any reason or excuse to "prove" that relative seniority and Nicolau's logic were flawed. Jamie is the one that said safety should be used as an integration factor I just pointed out that with the east safety record I would be happy to use that if he wanted. He did not really think that one through.

Touchy about your record I can understand that but it is your record. Excuses are not very adult.

View Postend_of_alpa, on 25 November 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:
Your point is well taken. Unions have, for many years, been able to "end tail" groups with a so called "legitimate union purpose" even at the frowning of some courts and appellate courts have approved. However, the main LEGITIMATE reason we have as pilots is to integrate with objective measurable standards, the main one I can think of is SAFETY.

The main method Jamie can think of to integrate is safety. It you guys would stop being stupid and chasing after a way to avoid your obligation we could all move forward and I would not have to point out stupid comment. Have you ever seen safety used as a factor in seniority integration?

So you want to get all [font="Calibri""]indignant[/font] with someone about bringing up your safety record talk to your boy Jamie.

 

[luvthe9]

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