OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I was never a fan of ALPA, truth be told the majority of ALPA pilots would have liked to see us disappear.

DAN, I am sorry your a brother EAST pilot but "DUH"

 

[Walmartgreeter]

MM just said: "You DIDN'T vote on the transition agreement.....the main reason ALPA was VOTED off the property. They kept negotiations secret. USAPA may have been the flame, but ALPA supplied the fuel from a series of fuel leaks tat finally caught up with it. "

MM, just jumping in on this one issue. You (We, East and West) indeed voted on the transition agreement. It was passed in part at the BPR level, but policy (thanks to Doug Mowery) said we HAD to get a vote on new equipment. Talk about coming to bite us in the rear, this pilot group voted on 190 rates and all the associated "rules" going forward. It passed with flying colors. That was the lynchpin that passed the T/A. It was dead in the water without...our vote.

Greeter

 

[end_of_alpa]

MM just said: "You DIDN'T vote on the transition agreement.....the main reason ALPA was VOTED off the property. They kept negotiations secret. USAPA may have been the flame, but ALPA supplied the fuel from a series of fuel leaks tat finally caught up with it. "

MM, just jumping in on this one issue. You (We, East and West) indeed voted on the transition agreement. It was passed in part at the BPR level, but policy (thanks to Doug Mowery) said we HAD to get a vote on new equipment. Talk about coming to bite us in the rear, this pilot group voted on 190 rates and all the associated "rules" going forward. It passed with flying colors. That was the lynchpin that passed the T/A. It was dead in the water without...our vote.

Greeter

I actually posted that. It wasn't the BPR level. It was the "officers" of both MEC's, East and West. The point here is that under USAPA Constitution & Bylaws contracts, side letters and agreements must be voted on by the rank and file. LOA 93 WAS voted on by rank and file but the TA approved by MEC. We did not want are reps writing checks they couldn't cash.

Although the separate ratification process required an East AND a West ratification process. I guess the problem D.E. has is he belives democracy should work in only certain situations.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I was never a fan of ALPA, truth be told the majority of ALPA pilots would have liked to see us disappear.

So it seems the same could be said of most of the West pilots.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

End just said: "It wasn't the BPR level. It was the "officers" of both MEC's, East and West"

Of course! After all these years I finally misspoke BPR/MEC in the other direction.

Bottom line is everyone on both sides had a vote on the T/A.

Greeter

 

[end_of_alpa]

End just said: "It wasn't the BPR level. It was the "officers" of both MEC's, East and West"

Of course! After all these years I finally misspoke BPR/MEC in the other direction.

Bottom line is everyone on both sides had a vote on the T/A.

Greeter

Do you mean that everyone had a vote for a JCBA that would supercede the transition agreement?

 

[end_of_alpa]

You won't have to wait long, should happen in December.

What's the "secret" in December???

 

[Walmartgreeter]

End just said "Do you mean that everyone had a vote for a JCBA that would supercede the transition agreement?"

Not sure if I understand what you are asking. The Transition Agreement was the "contract" that brought us out of BK. It was NOT a JCBA, it was by definition the process that would lead us to that end, or in our case unending limbo. Not only did it not work, it really is not even really relevant, unless after 7 years Parker finally decides to put this thing together.

The MEC's indeed would have approved the entire T/A without allowing the members to vote if they could have, but thanks to Mowery in his rep days the East had a standing resolution requiring a member vote on new equipment. The T/A was not agreed to "a la carte" by the Company. It was not like it could be sent out and only certain parts approved. In order to "sign" the document, a vote was required on the 190 being introduced, with its associated pay rates. Thus, in order for for T/A to be agreed to, it requried a MEMBERSHIP vote. The T/A could not be ratified until that happened. Take a look at LOA 96, including the 190 definitions and pay.

AWA thought they would never fly that plane, and had no problem voting for the low rates. Most of the East thought they also would never fly it. So far…..West was right, East was wrong.

Greeter

 

[end_of_alpa]

End just said "Do you mean that everyone had a vote for a JCBA that would supercede the transition agreement?"

Not sure if I understand what you are asking. The Transition Agreement was the "contract" that brought us out of BK. It was NOT a JCBA, it was by definition the process that would lead us to that end, or in our case unending limbo. Not only did it not work, it really is not even really relevant, unless after 7 years Parker finally decides to put this thing together.

The MEC's indeed would have approved the entire T/A without allowing the members to vote if they could have, but thanks to Mowery in his rep days the East had a standing resolution requiring a member vote on new equipment. The T/A was not agreed to "a la carte" by the Company. It was not like it could be sent out and only certain parts approved. In order to "sign" the document, a vote was required on the 190 being introduced, with its associated pay rates. Thus, in order for for T/A to be agreed to, it requried a MEMBERSHIP vote. The T/A could not be ratified until that happened. Take a look at LOA 96, including the 190 definitions and pay.

AWA thought they would never fly that plane, and had no problem voting for the low rates. Most of the East thought they also would never fly it. So far…..West was right, East was wrong.

Greeter

I think you and I are talking about the same thing, but I don't think we're establishing the proper order.

LOA 93 is THE CONTRACT that resulted from the second BK that the East pilots voted on and approved.

LOA 96 is a "transition" agreement that states a process between the integration of East and West pilots. It laid out the terms of who flys what equipment, what pay rates are established on the 190, while the process is traveled to a JCBA. If you'll notice, Duane Woerths signature is on this document. Why?

It is because the NATIONAL union (ALPA) requires the President approve ANY documents it's agents (East MEC, West MEC) sign off on. In short these "agents" as representatives of the "craft or class" must approve ANY contract, even those sent out to rank and file members to vote on. This arrangement is why APA and USAPA broke off from ALPA. If ALPA national doesn't like the agreement, they have veto power if the President doesn't approve it.

American MEC ALPA at the time in 1962, I believe, negotiated, voted on and approved the elimination of the flight engineer and the President of ALPA wouldn't sign the agreement. I have a link to this history on APA website if your interested.

LOA 96 provided a "process" towards the JCBA but under ALPA merger "policy" it was required to have separate ratification by both East rank and file membership and West rank and file membership. And if BOTH groups majority approved it, ALPA Nationals President was needed to sign that agreement. But the Transition agreement was NOT approved with rank and file approval.

The company argues it is a contract and THEY are bound by it. They are because there are TWO halves to it, the company side of what they must do and the union side of what were going to GET. They are bound to it up and until and JCBA is negotiated and voted on.

BTW, are you aware that the President could refuse to sign any contract you vote for if he/she doesn't like it? FWIW.

As far as who flies the 190 they were on the East and there they remain so far. Who was "right or wrong" I'm not sure I understand.

 

[cleardirect]

As far as who flies the 190 they were on the East and there they remain so far. Who was "right or wrong" I'm not sure I understand.

Even though the west is owed 1/3 of that flying.

Oh that's right just another agreement and arbitration the east does not want to live up to.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I think you and I are talking about the same thing, but I don't think we're establishing the proper order.

LOA 93 is THE CONTRACT that resulted from the second BK that the East pilots voted on and approved.

LOA 96 is a "transition" agreement that states a process between the integration of East and West pilots. It laid out the terms of who flys what equipment, what pay rates are established on the 190, while the process is traveled to a JCBA. If you'll notice, Duane Woerths signature is on this document. Why?

It is because the NATIONAL union (ALPA) requires the President approve ANY documents it's agents (East MEC, West MEC) sign off on. In short these "agents" as representatives of the "craft or class" must approve ANY contract, even those sent out to rank and file members to vote on. This arrangement is why APA and USAPA broke off from ALPA. If ALPA national doesn't like the agreement, they have veto power if the President doesn't approve it.

American MEC ALPA at the time in 1962, I believe, negotiated, voted on and approved the elimination of the flight engineer and the President of ALPA wouldn't sign the agreement. I have a link to this history on APA website if your interested.

LOA 96 provided a "process" towards the JCBA but under ALPA merger "policy" it was required to have separate ratification by both East rank and file membership and West rank and file membership. And if BOTH groups majority approved it, ALPA Nationals President was needed to sign that agreement. But the Transition agreement was NOT approved with rank and file approval.

The company argues it is a contract and THEY are bound by it. They are because there are TWO halves to it, the company side of what they must do and the union side of what were going to GET. They are bound to it up and until and JCBA is negotiated and voted on.

BTW, are you aware that the President could refuse to sign any contract you vote for if he/she doesn't like it? FWIW.

As far as who flies the 190 they were on the East and there they remain so far. Who was "right or wrong" I'm not sure I understand.

Good info EOA. But we can agree to disagree on one point, and I won't go through my logic again. I say the rank and file at both AWA and U indeed ratified the T/A. Greeeter

 

[end_of_alpa]

Good info EOA. But we can agree to disagree on one point, and I won't go through my logic again. I say the rank and file at both AWA and U indeed ratified the T/A. Greeeter

OK. I just wanted to know when and where the vote tally WAS for LOA96 if in fact the rank and file ratified the T/A?

Just askin.

 

[luvthe9]

I was never a fan of ALPA, truth be told the majority of ALPA pilots would have liked to see us disappear.

Sure you are Dan all the names on that list ROCCLTare former ALPO scum. Minor, Munn, Alter just to name a few, good luck with your "fix" 😉

 

[luvthe9]

What's the "secret" in December???

They think they are going to recall all the CLT reps and put in McGgirk, Bate and some other kid with zero experience and have Hummel get full control and GIVE AWAY DOH. Don't let you tell them otherwise.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

OK. I just wanted to know when and where the vote tally WAS for LOA96 if in fact the rank and file ratified the T/A?

Just askin.

Ok, I will come at this from another direction (and to address your question, can we both at least agree a vote was taken on the introduction of the 190 and its pay rates?) What would have been the status of the Transition Agreement if the membership had NOT agreed to the 190? Did the Company simply carve out the 190 language and move forward. I don't think so. But I will give you this, in my recollection ALPA did not present the 190 vote as a do or die for the T/A. I contend it was exactly that.Nice to have a little real debate. Heck, maybe I am wrong!Greeter