OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Agreed, and it perhaps helps understand the notion of integrity T-shirts, but the chartreuse one with the bold fire engine red lettering is a bit over the top.

😉 Agreed, but let us not become slaves of our own sense of fashion. Kids will be be kids. 🙂 I remember back to times of tie-dyed T-shirts, cut-off jeans and long hair myself.....as if from a strange dream now 🙂

Heck!...if they want to play in Fantasyland and magically become "Spartans", "Knights", "Dire Wolves" and apparently, even "Wizards"...one must almost want to just give them some fresh cookies, milk, and a hug for their warm innocence. 🙂 If they weren't so eagerly trying to steal entirely unearned advancement from others...you would almost have to admit that they were indeed "cute". 😉

 

[traderjake]

I liked flying with your father.

I even liked flying with you.

Thank you.

 

[EastUS1]

Don't dare delve into ANY aspects of actual reality....that'd just get them all worked up into yet another frenzy...and God Alone knows how many more T-shirts and videos would come forth! 🙂

Oh-my-gosh!..Two negative votes already!?....What was it?....Not enough warm milk and cookies set out for you entitlement kids? 🙂
Oh Well....Have an internet hug and a wish for some fine and sweet dreams anyway. 🙂 Keep the covers tucked up safe and warm..and don't let the reality bugs bite!

"A number of them flat-out, need help."

 

[Claxon]

Wow. I just read this...

http://www.forbes.co...artner=yahootix

Looks like some folks should be in jail. Maybe even some still on the property...

Not according to the little unemployed and angry Troll Cleardirect. In fact the money folks were attempting to put USAirways together with Franke Air the year prior. What stopped them was the fact USAirways pilots had a retirement plan, and we all know what Franke had given his boys. And what they had negotiated, ZERO, not even a DC Plan. So something had to give.....You can thank your ALPA MEC for that, and for the Nicolau. USAPA is the best move you ever made.



"Even before the second bankruptcy filing of 2004, one of the alternatives US Airways Group explored was a possible merger with America West, as the two airlines had complementary networks and similar labor costs. The parties held preliminary discussions and conducted due diligence from February through July 2004. Ultimately, these talks ended due to issues related to labor, pension, and benefit costs. By December 2004, US Airways had cut labor costs significantly. Its investment adviser, the Seabury Group, suggested putting the airline up for sale. The following month, US Airways Group and America West Holdings resumed their discussions. On May 19, 2005, both airlines officially announced the merger deal, structured as a reverse takeover. Financing for the deal was supplied by outside investors including Airbus S.A.S., an aircraft manufacturing subsidiary of EADS, the European aerospace consortium. Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation, operator of numerous US Airways Express flights, and ACE Aviation Holdings, the parent company of Air Canada, also bought shares in the combined airline. The merged airline retained the US Airways name to emphasize its national scope, as well as to capitalize on US Airways' worldwide recognition. On September 13, 2005, America West shareholders voted to approve the merger agreement, and three days later the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of Virginia approved US Airways' emergence from bankruptcy, allowing the merger to close on September 27."

 

[cleardirect]

Not according to the little unemployed and angry Troll Cleardirect. In fact the money folks were attempting to put USAirways together with Franke Air the year prior. What stopped them was the fact USAirways pilots had a retirement plan, and we all know what Franke had given his boys. And what they had negotiated, ZERO, not even a DC Plan. So something had to give.....You can thank your ALPA MEC for that, and for the Nicolau. USAPA is the best move you ever made.



"Even before the second bankruptcy filing of 2004, one of the alternatives US Airways Group explored was a possible merger with America West, as the two airlines had complementary networks and similar labor costs. The parties held preliminary discussions and conducted due diligence from February through July 2004. Ultimately, these talks ended due to issues related to labor, pension, and benefit costs. By December 2004, US Airways had cut labor costs significantly. Its investment adviser, the Seabury Group, suggested putting the airline up for sale. The following month, US Airways Group and America West Holdings resumed their discussions. On May 19, 2005, both airlines officially announced the merger deal, structured as a reverse takeover. Financing for the deal was supplied by outside investors including Airbus S.A.S., an aircraft manufacturing subsidiary of EADS, the European aerospace consortium. Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation, operator of numerous US Airways Express flights, and ACE Aviation Holdings, the parent company of Air Canada, also bought shares in the combined airline. The merged airline retained the US Airways name to emphasize its national scope, as well as to capitalize on US Airways' worldwide recognition. On September 13, 2005, America West shareholders voted to approve the merger agreement, and three days later the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of Virginia approved US Airways' emergence from bankruptcy, allowing the merger to close on September 27."

OK! This should put to rest any of the discussion about who bought who. Reverse takeover.

American West shareholders voted. It does not say US Airways share holder.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Jake's father certainly was not like that.

I really think what you're saying applied to some of the "old hats" hired before 1977. In 1977 hiring went gangbusters after about 8 years of almost no hiring, and the pilots hired then were of a very different mindset.

After sleeping on it overnight I think a misinterpretation of what I was trying to point out was interpreted out of context.

I was hired at Piedmont in march of 1987. I remember vividly not only the interview process but the training process as well. (Names however seem elusive!). While in new hire class senior officers came to speak to us, we were given new flight bags, company literature and even annual reports and information on the strength of the airline. WE WERE GOING TO BE CAPTAINS IN THREE YEARS! That was the promise we heard from our compadre Captains and management constantly. "You're flying for a real airline, son...you'll be here someday".

We were then taken to the top floor of the corporate offices in INT for lunch with all the officers. We met "Boss Hogg", Bethune and all of the highest level officers. Pilots were considered top tier and treated as such. I have NEVER heard of this happening anywhere in the industry at that time. Those were the days. What a sales job.

As a new hire F/E you had two "pilots" sitting in front of you walking you through the first year of probation. Characters like Jim Brown and Elmo come to mind. Each were characters whom the whole group knew about because of their flamboyant endeavors....lets just say. If they ever got into any kind of trouble it seemed the Chief Pilots office was there to smooth their discrepancy over and allow them to continue on their merry way. Again, this was the culture of the "good ole boys" that endeared most of us to the company. We were having a whole lotta fun!

In 1988 the airline was going to merge with US Air/PSA. The culture was changing for everyone overnight. Sitting in the engineer seat and then moving to the right seat of the 727 was extremely interesting. I had flown with almost all the 727 captains and overwhelmingly were great pilots and great guys. However, when the discussion of seniority integration came up I believe that this company treatment of the pilots a Piedmont gave all of us a somewhat skewed sense of, I'll just say, inflated value that was carrying forward into the new era of deregulation. I didn't buy into that school of thought. I also didn't win many friends at Piedmont with that argument either, but as a new hire pilot you had to bite your tongue for fear of loosing your job. At Piedmont, Captains authority was make or break when your first year review was forthcoming....and they MEANT IT!

Now, I interviewed at US Air the year before and It was an interesting interview. What I can tell you about "who you knew" was telling. Gifts for the person running the interview program was not uncommon, from what I was told by many after I first bid up to PIT after the merger. I was one of the first piedmont pilots to bid into PIT on the first combined bid after the merger in the right seat of the 727. US Air was phasing out the -17 of which they only had about 10 left. I can tell you this, after being based in CLT and then in PIT was a huge culture shock.

If you were taking a trip to the Chief Pilot office there, it wasn't for a pat on the back. I remember my first year at Piedmont at Christmas, you went to the Chief Pilot office to get your "Benjamin" in a money envelope stuffed by the office personnel. In PIT, you went to the CP office for an ass chewing. One heck of an eye opener. (I didn't get called into the CP office for that, I just know that those I flew with ALL reported avoidance of the CP office as it was an unfriendly place to be as a pilot).

Piedmont started getting former Eastern 727 in 1977, the 767 in about 1985. They were known for great training and advanced safety with their equipment. I thought US Airs maintenance was better because they kept their equipment a lot longer and invested in their well being. I can tell you the inside tailcone of the DC-9 and 727 were kept so clean you could eat off the floor. The back of the Piedmont 727 tailcone was dusty if you peeled back the covers in the back stairwell (I was warned to pay no attention the "the man behind the curtain" so to speak. I believe the " Piedmont principle" is a cultural principle much like that at SWA and Kelleher. We had that in spades at Piedmont and virtually none of that at US Air.

But both airlines paid very well with growth and/or merging and that seemed to salve wounds over that time.

Moving forward to 2007/2008 when trying to get the new union was where I was "reintroduced" to the some former Piedmont pilots who's parent was a pilot. Nepotism was also prevalent at US Air, in fact I would make a guess that it happened a lot more at US Air then Piedmont. But the old ratio argument at Piedmont reared its ugly head again from a few of the Piedmont guys I knew that had parents that were pilots. I'm not sure why they felt the argument was their belief but I do know that the position they were in in 2008 was vastly different than in 1987. A senior 767 Captain gets affected a WHOLE lot less than those COMING AFTER THEM. Maybe they felt some form of allegiance to their parent, I don't know for a fact. That was the impression I received and also they were still big ALPA supporters....even though it was their parent that was the "heavy lifter" in ALPA and not them. They seems to be living of the fruit of their parents efforts in unionism.

It's an observation from a perspective I've had from having flown with both early Piedmont and US Air(Allegheny/Mohawk/Lake Central) pilots. You could say oil and water was a comparable term.

Just my perspective and experience from someone who lived it.

 

[end_of_alpa]

OK! This should put to rest any of the discussion about who bought who. Reverse takeover.

American West shareholders voted. It does not say US Airways share holder.

Here we go again.

US Airways Group was the surviving carrier and US Airways/AWA merged.

FASB as it was structured as a reverse acquisition....in short, for accounting purposes.

Legal PURPOSES, US AIRWAYS GROUP bought AWA and it was merged with US Airways.

I've already written about this and provided the video AND the 10-K.

Lets not debate this anymore, Clear....everyone here already knows this.

 

[Black Swan]

OK! This should put to rest any of the discussion about who bought who. Reverse takeover.

American West shareholders voted. It does not say US Airways share holder.

Living in the past does not bode well for the future. If you believe it, and it helps you? Then believe,

 

[fatherabraham]

Just my perspective and experience from someone who lived it.

EOA,

As an early 88 I saw it much the same way.
Also realized all above & psa placed above me. All were earlier DOH so no problem.
Recall regional guys easily passing on Eastern jobs in 86/87 for clearly obvious reasons.
I still walked the line in 88 with them.
Then got to see the 86/87 EAL fellas (Shuttle ) placed in front of me. Such is life at an airline, was just blessed to be here.
Sent in $ to rid myself of alpa in early 90's after dropping DOH practice in favor of relativism.
Prophesied then such a policy would eventually bite me!
Fast forward to :
911 🙁
Pension Loss 🙁
Loa 93 🙁
BK 🙁
AWA 🙁
Nic 🙁
5 yr age delay 🙁

All the Glamour :-o

FA

 

[Black Swan]

[background=transparent]No meaningful analysis was undertaken by PBGC of certain specific investments that lost most, if not all, of their value over a very short period of time, and whether these investments were appropriate for, as well as consistent with the investment guidelines of, the Plan. Further, PBGC did not review the Plan’s investments in futures and made no attempt to investigate the Plan’s $188 million in futures losses in 2001. Finally, PBGC did not investigate what caused the Plan to lose $658 million dollars, or one-third of its value between December 2001 and March 2003, and did not compare performance of the Plan against any of the other US Airways pension plans for the same period.[/background]
[background=transparent]Our review of the limited records of the Plan made available to us revealed profound omissions, errors, conflicts of interest and “red flags” regarding many of the firms that provided fundamental services to the Plan, such as audit, actuarial, custodial, investment consulting, foreign exchange, securities trading and money management. [/background]




[background=transparent]Hopefully this will lead right back to the ones who were behind the issue of the forced destruction of an employee groups pension to facilitate the merger with AWA. It was a startling fact that the PBGC did not hesitate for one moment to take the USAirways Pilots Pension as they must have been amazed someone would hand over that amount of cash, with comparatively little liability of paying the benefit they were liable for. And this was even after the loss of over one third of the value in a short time before the handoff. That loss was 41.25 million A MONTH![/background]

 

[end_of_alpa]

EOA,

As an early 88 I saw it much the same way.
Also realized all above & psa placed above me. All were earlier DOH so no problem.
Recall regional guys easily passing on Eastern jobs in 86/87 for clearly obvious reasons.
I still walked the line in 88 with them.
Then got to see the 86/87 EAL fellas (Shuttle ) placed in front of me. Such is life at an airline, was just blessed to be here.
Sent in $ to rid myself of alpa in early 90's after dropping DOH practice in favor of relativism.
Prophesied then such a policy would eventually bite me!
Fast forward to :
911 🙁
Pension Loss 🙁
Loa 93 🙁
BK 🙁
AWA 🙁
Nic 🙁
5 yr age delay 🙁

All the Glamour :-o

FA

Hence the nebulous value of "career expectations". On another thread here they talk about the long list of applicants (for every position we have over 100 applications) especially for pilots that the HP/Mesa management mentality comes to mind.

Any wonder why we have such differences among our pilot groups? No matter, were jumping up rapidly on the East and we can expect it to be the same for quite some time. If the judge grants AMR exclusivity for the foreseeable future I see an opportunity for US Airways to pick up competative pieces in the US while locking West pilots in PHX. I'M NOT TRYING TO GLOAT, but the company is going to take advantage of our lower costs to move into competative territory to take advantage of their bankruptcies and/or higher costs.

Also, many of our junior pilots are moving into the training command to take advantage of he higher pay rates instead of being on reserve. A LOT OF MOVEMENT is expected over here.

 

[fifidriver]

Here we go again.

US Airways Group was the surviving carrier and US Airways/AWA merged.

FASB as it was structured as a reverse acquisition....in short, for accounting purposes.

Legal PURPOSES, US AIRWAYS GROUP bought AWA and it was merged with US Airways.



I've already written about this and provided the video AND the 10-K.

Lets not debate this anymore, Clear....everyone here already knows this.

Thanks for the history from a Piedmont perspective. It was interesting to me as I know an old Lake Central guy, and his perspective always seems somewhat skewed and possibly less than complimentary. It appears to me that the guys with an admitted Piedmont heritage, may have a better handle on "fairness" as it applies to our situation.
However, I believe that you may be utilizing a slightly different definition of the word "bought" as opposed to what is considered common usage.
I think maybe that was just the "packaging" for the first trip down the path of "what does it take to avoid the Change of Control" clause.
Speaking of CoC: Does anyone really know what exactly it would take to actually trigger it?

 

[Black Swan]

I have one question for the West pilots. I really do not have a working knowledge of how the recalls work. Would someone please inform me what option a West pilot who passed on recall has? Are there still opportunities with each East bid to move into that section or are they locked out after the first turndown?

 

[Beancounter]

Hence the nebulous value of "career expectations". On another thread here they talk about the long list of applicants (for every position we have over 100 applications) especially for pilots that the HP/Mesa management mentality comes to mind.

Any wonder why we have such differences among our pilot groups? No matter, were jumping up rapidly on the East and we can expect it to be the same for quite some time. If the judge grants AMR exclusivity for the foreseeable future I see an opportunity for US Airways to pick up competative pieces in the US while locking West pilots in PHX. I'M NOT TRYING TO GLOAT, but the company is going to take advantage of our lower costs to move into competative territory to take advantage of their bankruptcies and/or higher costs.

Also, many of our junior pilots are moving into the training command to take advantage of he higher pay rates instead of being on reserve. A LOT OF MOVEMENT is expected over here.

I have to agree. The west pilot will be locked in PHX, with no movement, on our contract and the east will be locked on LOA93. It is what it is.

Bean

 

[end_of_alpa]

I have to agree. The west pilot will be locked in PHX, with no movement, on our contract and the east will be locked on LOA93. It is what it is.

Bean

I think you are missing my point:
Although were on LOA 93, the risk we knew we had without it was averted.

On the East:
The new hire pilots will get advancement that give them an effectively immediate pay raise.
The F/O pilots on reserve will move up to holding a block that give them an effectively immediate pay raise.
The F/O blockholder pilots will move up to reserve Captain that give them an effectively immediate pay raise.
The Captain reserve pilots will move up to blockholder Captain positions that give them an effectively immediate pay raise.
The Captain blockholders will move up to higher paying equipment giving them an effectively immediate pay raise.
The senior most pilots will retire off the list .... unfortunately on LOA 93.

However, those same pilots should be acknowledged that the commitment they made to us when they said that we would be in their position someday is definitely a commitment kept and honored.

We appreciate that.

On the West...stagnation and possibly a renegotiated minimum block hours if the company wihes to do so.

Who knows what the future holds?