OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

How does the performance of a company post merger, and/or the allocation of the company's assets prove anything about the job security of a pilot who would have been on the street in very tough economic times minus the merger.

Umm..."...who would have been..."? Let me see now..oh yeah...I guess it's "reasonable" to compare existing reality with what could or supposedly "would have been"..as if the two were of equal gravity...? Well....actually no. It's not at all reasonable. In fact it's insane to do so. Less time on the rides in Fantasyland is strongly suggested here. Good luck with your self-serving, ever-twisting-in-the-wind, opportunistic BS. Let me know if you ever develop the ability to reasonably establish and maintain any consistent position, and even better yet; some semblance of a moral code..which I'd previously and mistakenly imagined you had...right up to the 17 years of service pilot supposedly "stealing" ANYTHING from the 3 month/hew hire. No matter. I've past had my fill of such entirely unwholesome insanity for now.

 

[nic4us]

What are you?...Some kind of derainged refugee from Pol Pot's Khmers, with their fantasy of starting the world all over at "the year Zero"?

Run that hopeless horse crap by the APA folks at your very first opportunity. Explain to them that they no longer work for American, but all are indeed, newly born into a brand new entity. After they pull their jaws off the floor sufficently to resume speaking; be certain to explain that you "saved" them all, that they should be happy just to have a job, and..of course...that any one of you west folks is instantly worth a 17 year "seniority" advancement over them. DO be sure to get back to us all afterwards, and tell us just how well such hopelessly insane BS is received by them. 😉

One more thing..every single West pilot moved backward...so in reality, if you want to measure advancement in years that is fine...but, every single West pilot moved to a relative position they formerly held...for me it is like the east guy put ahead of me got a 3 year advancement..i.e. he was now holding a relative position I held 3 years prior.

So, you are saying he should have been put further down the list...I mean..he now holds a position I held years prior.

 

[nic4us]

Umm..."...who would have been..."? Let me see now..oh yeah...I guess it's "reasonable" to compare existing reality with what could or supposedly "would have been"..as if the two were of equal gravity...? Well....actually no. It's not at all reasonable. In fact it's insane to do so. Less time on the rides in Fantasyland is strongly suggested here. Good luck with your self-serving, ever-twisting-in-wind, opportunistic BS. Let me know if you ever develop the ability to reasonably establish and maintain any consistent position, and even better yet; some semblance of a moral code..which I'd previously and mistakenly imagined you had. No matter. I've past had my fill of such complete insanity for now.

What is the existing reality...

The only thing we know for sure is what the CEO said both prior to and after the merger...

Airways was liquidating. That means job security=zero.

Now if you want to talk job prospects, like who is going to fly the airplanes when they get moved to other airlines, that is a totaly different subject.

 

[cleardirect]

Hey we are just happy to help the company, can't wiat till you pieced off by AMR, they have a nasty habit of getting rid of dead wood (PHX).

Explain how Parkers business plan works by being #1 in the #1 in the mid west and #3 in the west without a PHX base. that would leave him with an LAX base 100 flights a day and no room for growth.

Now Mr. bid-ness man. Who is he going to piece us out to? Just like negotiations you have to have a buyer.

 

[EastUS1]

What is the existing reality...

If you can't so much as firmly establish that for yourself; all conversation is pointless.

 

[cleardirect]

The fact is you got it wrong....and can't admit that.

usapa tried to relieve the company and take the liability on itself, we all know why. It did not work. The company is liable if they collude with usapa and amend the TA...CBA in a manner that harms the West.

hint; admitting a mistake is the first step in not making it again.

Hang on. I am starting to agree with this idea. Let usapa take on the liability of a DFR. If they are so sure that they can use whatever list they want and DOH is not going to get them DFR'r.

Fine! Call Lloyds of London or whatever insurance company usapa can get. Have them look at the FACTS of this case. A second opinion if you will. Let the insurance company lawyers read all of the filings not the union shills and let the insurance company decide.

Let usapa buy about a $200 million liability and DFR insurance policy. If the insurance company will sign off on the FACTS and not charge $200 million for the policy lets go. But if usapa can't get an insurance company to agree they can win I would say that usapa and the east pilots should proceed very carefully.

I would like a second outside neutral opinion on the unions chances of losing a DFR if anything other than Nicolau is used.

 

[cactusboy53]

So then...P.T Barnum WAS right.

Yep: “Every crowd has a SILVER lining.”
P.T. Barnum quote

 

[cleardirect]

No, your greed has been stopped. Dead. Go to court. Remember, the rest of the world would love to slam your claim of HARM into the ground. It would be like Donald Trump claiming he was harmed, when he lost a dollar in the wind, and some poor homeless woman found it and tucked it away. Then Trump wanted it back.
You have lost all sight of right and wrong in your greed. Shame on you.

So to you someone taking what does not belong to them is OK. Was it the homeless woman dollar or Trumps?

 

[EastUS1]

Yep: "Every crowd has a SILVER lining."
P.T. Barnum quote

Proper points for an excellent comeback CB53 😉 On that happier note: Have a good evening all.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think a west new hire was making more than a guy at TOS F/O on the east, now was he? And the last few years have shown the perceived superior job prospects were false.

without the merger what was the east pilots pay rate going to be at the end of 2005? The west guy was going to make more than ALL the east pilots in 2006 flying airplanes.

 

[mrbreeze]

In the Matter of the Seniority Integration Arbitration​

Between​

THE PILOTS OF NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.​

and​

THE PILOTS OF DELTA AIR LINES, INC.

We turn first to the competing proposals concerning the underlying integration​

method: Date-of-Hire versus a Status and Category/Ratio approach. Although there are​

advantages and disadvantages to each method, the facts of this case persuade this Board​

that the Status and Category approach is the more fair and equitable. To be sure, prior​

ALPA Arbitration Boards have merged Seniority Lists by means of date-weighted

methods.10 But in this case, that method is not sufficiently responsive to the makeup of​

these two groups. The relative seniority mismatch between the two contingents results,​

when combined by Date-of-Hire, in a dramatic overloading of NWA pilots in premium​

flying categories, an imbalance that remains a virtual fixture in the ongoing relationship​

between the parties.11

So, you are saying that slotting is the only way to do it. Let's say from 1930 to today.....regardless of time invested, age differences, prop versus jet time, International vs domestic experience, a major airline vs an airline such as Morris Air.....United buying say Virgin Atlantic.......guys with much less time on the job and possibly no experience in International ops, should be slotted with the larger, more experienced carrier......bumping a guy down with 14 more yrs of seniority and professional experience....in your fuked up opinion is fair. Obvioulsy, the guy who is 14 yrs junior is screwing a more senior pilot, cashing in his lottery ticket, just because his managers agreed to sell to a larger airline, or the larger airline had to file BK. It has nothing to do with his experience or time invested. You're saying it has everything to do with how CEO's make their business deals and line their pockets.

You're one screwed up dude....a real "brother" on the line.
Gawd!

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

So, you are saying that slotting is the only way to do it. Let's say from 1930 to today.....regardless of time invested, age differences, prop versus jet time, International vs domestic experience, a major airline vs an airline such as Morris Air.....United buying say Virgin Atlantic.......guys with much less time on the job and possibly no experience in International ops, should be slotted with the larger, more experienced carrier......bumping a guy down with 14 more yrs of seniority and professional experience....in your fuked up opinion is fair.

You're one screwed up dude.
breeze

How about the one where the carrier is a step into liquidation with all of its pilots heading for the street while the other airline is no where near even bankruptcy and has airplanes coming onto property? What then?

 

[mrbreeze]

How about the one where the carrier is a step into liquidation with all of its pilots heading for the street while the other airline is no where near even bankruptcy and has airplanes coming onto property? What then?

Sorry, forgot to mention that one, where the merger was a mutual investment by the financial community, both were in dire straits, saving each airline from the woes of BK, and the low life West pilots were drooling to be part of a major network. These West pilots would have never thought of such a lottery ticket if it had not been suggested by St Nic, who screwed up the works for everyone. He really screwed it up for all of us. Honestly, prior to his proposal, did you even concieve that you would jump 14 yrs in seniority, just because of the transaction involved? No, I bet none of you guys had a clue that would happen. Now that he threw in the monkey wrench, you guys think you deserve that position.....that's total BS and you know it. Where we are now is that you guys think the NIC is the standard that USAPA has to live up to.....well, you're wrong. You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots.....it has nothing to do with NIC screwing with your minds.


It doesn't matter if we were within 1 hour of liquidation, it never happened and we're all still here doing the same job that we have spent most of our lives doing. Damned if we're going to let someone 14 yrs junior to us take a position senior to us.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

without the merger what was the east pilots pay rate going to be at the end of 2005? The west guy was going to make more than ALL the east pilots in 2006 flying airplanes.

Only if their contract was still intact after the fall of 2005, which is when Parker predicted AWE would have been filing BK.

Weak s=it, Clear

 

[Move2CLT]

Sorry, forgot to mention that one, where the merger was a mutual investment by the financial community, both were in dire straits, saving each airline from the woes of BK, and the low life West pilots were drooling to be part of a major network. These West pilots would have never thought of such a lottery ticket if it had not been suggested by St Nic, who screwed up the works for everyone. He really screwed it up for all of us. Honestly, prior to his proposal, did you even concieve that you would jump 14 yrs in seniority, just because of the transaction involved? No, I bet none of you guys had a clue that would happen. Now that he threw in the monkey wrench, you guys think you deserve that position.....that's total BS and you know it. Where we are now is that you guys think the NIC is the standard that USAPA has to live up to.....well, you're wrong. You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots.....it has nothing to do with NIC screwing with your minds.
breeze

I don't give a #### where the money came from. Your ass was on the street in September without the merger. I would have still been buying Christmas presents for the kids with money I was making at AWA.

You? Probably using money from your highly successful second career. But it wouldn't have been coming from US Air.

So you're lucky you weren't stapled.