OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

A DOH list is not the same as a non-Nicolou list. AOL continues to make the false assumption that harm to the west is pre-ordained if anything other than the Nic is used. They don't know what the final list and Section 22 language will be, but they are absolutely sure whatever it is, it will constitute a ripe and winnable DFR.

USAPA has already lost a DFR at the 5th District. I hope they know where the mines are buried this time around.

 

[Barrister]

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

Here is an example.

The pilot at the top of the west list goes from 518 on the Nicolau list to 899 by DOH or 7.0% to 13.4%

The junior west captain goes from 2970 on the Nicolau list to 4604 by DOH or 45.5% to 68.0%

This junior captain also goes from having zero furloughs senior to him to having 460 furloughs senior to him. Using DOH 82% of the west pilots would have a furloughed pilot senior to them. Only 340 west pilots would be unaffected by furlough pilots. That west captain 18.5% down the west list would be placed 6 numbers senior to Monda the JUNIOR east active reserve F/O.

Dave Odell goes from 4769 on the Nicolau list to 6676 by DOH or 73.1% to 100%.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

There is not a set of C&R in the world that can mitigate that kind of harm to the west. A DOH list places ALL of the active east F/O’s and 460 furlough pilots senior to west captains. Every upgrade at the airline would be taken by an east pilots leaving west pilots stagnate and furlough fodder. How does that as usapa says “with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”

A DOH list does not preserve the west un-merged expectations of holding a line, weekends off or upgrading. As a matter of fact a DOH would be a violation of the C&BL. a furloughed guys un merged career expectations was the street not senior to 400 west captains. Going from junior reserve F/O to line holding captain.

Let me say again because I know your east guys are thick headed.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

As you said yourself. "You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots."

You will not see a DOH list and that is the bottom line.

Hey idiot boy a DOH always harms someone.....but define "harm" for us please. The older guy retires first, the younger guy gets to stay.
YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTANS THIS UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN HERE 25 YEARS
.Think about it dummy.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[EastUS1]

Oh, yeah, I forgot, you don't read anything official, you just believe everything your "union" tells you. Yet you boast of your intelligence.

Ummm..."..you just believe everything your...... tells you..."...? I'd guess that's a clear cut case of personal projection? 😉

Just so you know; anyone that's even capable of making such an assinine, blanket assumption has no business ever even addressing, much less assailing the intelligence of any other person.

 

[Metroyet]

A DOH list is not the same as a non-Nicolou list. AOL continues to make the false assumption that harm to the west is pre-ordained if anything other than the Nic is used. They don't know what the final list and Section 22 language will be, but they are absolutely sure whatever it is, it will constitute a ripe and winnable DFR.

USAPA has already lost a DFR at the 5th District. I hope they know where the mines are buried this time around.

The mines are buried in plain sight. Try the C&BLs for a starter then the UOM ought to make that pretty clear as well. Not to mention the mountains of evidence from Addington. Oh yeah, and contract law regarding the TA and the company's responsibility to it....this all leads to one conclusion but USTUPID is exactly that....too USTUPID to get it. This DOH quest has already cost over a Billion dollars in lost pay. The odds of a billion more just jumped significantly....assuming Silver dismisses....which I personally believe she should have 2.5 years ago.

 

[EastUS1]

USAPA has already lost a DFR at the 5th District.

It must be farily noted that proceeding took place in a court, sufficently slanted and umm...(searching for a kind term here) "confused" as to not even understand the seemingly simple concept of ripeness,...just sayin'....

 

[EastUS1]

The law is the law, and our west counterparts have the advantage.

" [background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations, but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways.[/background] "

While immediately (and far too easily methinks) assuming a manifest advantage for the west; you perhaps do realize that you're actually quoting (in dramatic, bolded fashion no less) not the "law" at all, but merely propagandistic drivel from an AOL "update"...with "perhaps free" providing the peak in comedic slant...? IF that's truly your core source for evaluating ANY aspect of the legal scenario...well....a suggestion for some more independant thought might well be appropriate.

 

[Move2CLT]

It must be farily noted that proceeding took place in a court, sufficently slanted and umm...(searching for a kind term here) "confused" as to not even understand the seemingly simple concept of ripeness,...just sayin'....

Ya, that's it east. It's always an external factor for you guys, isn't it.

Sufficiently slanted - whatever. The stupidity and denial disease the east has is beyond belief.

 

[luvthe9]

767jetz, your thoughts please sir.

Ual management is taking advantage of original Ual pilots, pitting one group against the other two years after the merger announcement. USAirways pilots beware, the CAL pilots actions could be the future game plan of our AMR pilot "brothers".

From a UAL MEC update, October 5, 2012.


Update On Recalls

We are disappointed to announce that the company has now stated that even though furlough recalls are in the plan for 2013, it is not yet ready to make an official announcement. The company's stated reason is that the block hour plan is still in flux and it is not sure exactly how many pilots it will need next summer. The company is not comfortable enough with the numbers even to announce a general number and time frame for recalls, but nonetheless was able to forecast a large CAL system bid and announcement of new pilot hiring.​

​

The toying with our furloughees’ emotions is reprehensible. The MEC will continue to press management to publish a plan. ​

 

[Move2CLT]

I agree. The east can also repeat the mantra "The Nic will always harm the east". So let's agree that both DOH and Nic should be non-starters.

It's been often argued that the east will never, no way get a re-do. The courts have ruled otherwise, but now USAPA needs to be truly smart and creative. They have been given an opportunity to actually re-do the award.

Can USAPA craft a list which honors the principles of DOH but reflects the unique demographics of our two disparate pilot groups? A list which will be able to withstand the test of any future DFR challenge?

I think such a list is possible and I have read and heard a number of creative ways to fashion such a list. But is USAPA willing and capable of doing so?

One place to start is to better protect the pilots who will be most vulnerable in the event of a transition from hub to focus city. I won't mention any three letter identifiers.

Another is to acknowledge that time on furlough, as difficult as it may be, does not carry the same claim as active time. Even most former furloughees would acknowledge that.

BTW, who would replace the CLT reps - do you have any names?

No KV, you can't claim that. It's an arbitrated list that the company has accepted.

The Nic is the only starter.

 

[EastUS1]

Ya, that's it east. It's always an external factor for you guys, isn't it.

Sufficiently slanted - whatever. The stupidity and denial disease the east has is beyond belief.

OK then. Fair enough. Explain to us all the true, judicial magnificence that was demonstrated by a courtroom proceeding, later found to be so utterly inept as to not even pass the ripeness test, and subsequently, properly dismissed....? Is it even possibly your current contention that, outside of the incredibly gross blunder of ever even seating the Wake proceedings; that no additonal flaws could have possibly been or be found? Ya' gotta' just be kidding us all here! 😉

Would it truly seem reasonable to you to ever preflight an aircraft, note the absence of a wing and an engine, and accept it for flight anyway? Assuming you did and somehow survived; would it honestly seem reasonable to later describe what a fine craft it was indeed....well...except for that little problem with crashing on takeoff?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Absent an AA merger, this should be interesting to see what usapa has in mind when it get's nowhere with its right to bargain. This could be another hundred years, I'm thinking usapa is gonna grow antsy again. What will be forthcoming to 'force' the issue this time?

With an AA merger, God only knows. Definately uncharted territory.

 

[EastUS1]

With an AA merger, God only knows. Definately uncharted territory.

Agreed.

 

[luvthe9]

The Nic is the only starter.

Only in your mind!!!![sub][/sub]

 

[cleardirect]

We need to talk... I need some stock picks.

Seriously, it's time to get in the game. Many of you are sitting back waiting on the NIC to happen with no plan B except to file a DFR. There is a list that will satisfy the courts and the needs of ALL the pilot group. It's not the NIC and it's not straight DOH either. Either a deal gets brokered or we stay buried in this mess. The paradigm at the airline has changed so drastically that it bares little resemblance to the PID. Crying in your beer or pitching fits won't solve this. It's time for reasonable people to be reasonable. There is no place left to hide.

Driver....

Yes there is a list that satisfied the courts. It is called the Nicolau list. Anything usapa comes up with is going to have to satisfy the courts, the company, the west pilots, the east pilots and the APA.

Here is where you are missing the point. The company lawyer says 6 times that usapa is constitutionally mandated to use DOH. Are the east pilots willing to accept a list that is not DOH and violate the C&BL’s? What would a non-DOH list look like? LOS does not change 85% of the DOH list.

At least you are beginning to understand there is no deal to be brokered. So yes as long as usapa and the east pilots insist on using ANYTHING other than the Nicolau there is no deal and there will be no contract. So the reasonable thing is to use the arbitrated list and move on. Things may have changed since the PID date. Who cares the PID did not change. Things changed BECAUSE of the merger.

Is that really the standard you want to use? Parker decides to put all of the flying on the American side and shrink us. Should the APA be allowed to use that as evidence in the next seniority arbitration? Can they come back 5-10 after the merger and say see where we are now we need to change this list?

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

Usapa is constitutionally mandated to present a DOH PROPOSAL. There is no middle ground, no negotiatied compromise position, no hybrid seniority list that we can all agree on. usapa has had 5 years to make a change, to propose something other than DOH but have not changed a single comma. Why would they change something now that according to the union can do whatever they want. Usapa is in a very bad spot because they have the west on one side, angry east pilots on the other insisting on getting everything, the company unwilling to risk liability or pay for any C&R and the APA unwilling to pay for the east demands. The only list usapa can and will propose is DOH. A DOH list will always harm the west.

Mr. Seigel at the hearing


Hope wish dream for some compromise or list other than the Nicolau but it is not going to happen.

the constitutionally mandated seniority demand with USAPA that says it has to be the date of hire and cannot be the Nicolau award,

Number two, and this is what I raised in the Rule 12 hearing, the conundrum is that as we came out of the Ninth Circuit ruling, we have a constitutionally mandated date of hire proposal that we know. And at least one jury and one judge found to be illegal under the DFR principles. It was later reversed but not on the merits.

but in terms of whether or not in all of the circumstances that occurred is whether the carrier is now able to proceed to accept a seniority demand, constitutionally mandated by the union. This is not something that gets malleable in the bargaining process.
We know it's not going to be the Nicolau award. We know that the threat to sue from the West Pilots is that it has to be the Nicolau award. There's nothing that is change – to change at the bargaining table.


and given the fact that the proposal is not changing, it's constitutionally mandated,

My point was what I said, which is that on that issue, we have the Nicolau award and we have the USAPA proposal. There's only been one and it was several years ago and it was mandated by their constitution. Date of hire, it's different than the Nicolau award.

I think that is a totally unique situation that was not addressed by the Ninth Circuit. And if we had been there and had made the point and the argument from the carrier's perspective, I do believe we would have had a different result. I don't see how we could not because to send the carrier into negotiations and say, "You go, you go make an agreement and then it gets ratified and then we'll decide it's legal or not," when we know going in what the possibilities are. It is simply Nicolau or it is the constitutionally mandated date of hire?

Mr. Harper

As recently as last month, I mean in September of 2012, the union adopted a new operating manual for the union. Union operating manual -- union operating manual. OUM. Paragraph 51 of that or Section 51 of that operating manual says, just within the past month, the Negotiating Committee, if they sit down at the table, is duty-bound. They can't deviate from the union-mandated constitutional provision of date of hire with some defenses and restrictions.

So as we walk into the room today, there is no change. Mr. Siegel is right. They are not going to change. They are not changed and that is what they are going to insist upon.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

A DOH list is not the same as a non-Nicolou list. AOL continues to make the false assumption that harm to the west is pre-ordained if anything other than the Nic is used. They don't know what the final list and Section 22 language will be, but they are absolutely sure whatever it is, it will constitute a ripe and winnable DFR.

USAPA has already lost a DFR at the 5th District. I hope they know where the mines are buried this time around.

I'm only one west pilot, but I think the mines are buried in plain sight. The land mines are the mountain of evidence usapa itself has provided. I personally think another jury, or perhaps even a Judge during a bench trial, would see what trasnspired no matter if the list usapa comes up with would look resonable in other, more normal circumstances. Now, would I state that in full confidence as a matter of fact? Hell no.

Of course that is assuming no merger and usapa can get the company to move. I think you'll be retired before we get to find out. I'm not even going to try and pontificate on the possibilities there, I might get dizzy.