OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Thanks..

As far as this APA member is concerned, there once were two airlines who agreed to binding arbitration. The arbitrator developed an integration. Game over.

Should LCC and AA merger, Nic it is. Anything else is B.S.

I haven't heard your union say this and the only other AA pilot I've talked to said that he personally would rather go into M/B with a US DOH list because it would shift the age/longevity of the east, i.e. the US guys that would be senior to AA guys would be generally be retiring earlier.

But, let's say you're correct and that is the AA position and we know that is the west pilots position. From my layman's POV I see a couple of issues with that. The APA is not the CBA for US pilots yet, USAPA is. So they have the RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES. I have heard different versions of how the APA will come in, be voted or appointed the new CBA and run things, but if they proffer the Nicolau award as our seniority list after Judge Silver just ruled that the union has the legal right to change it (if there is a LUP, but she didn't say what that was or if we had one), then I think there will be enough east pilots that will take a page out of the AOL playbook and file a DFR with an injunction request.

As for west pilot, well they are in the minority. The question of whether USAPA really can or cannot change the Nic has not been answered yet, and Judge Silver left them hanging. They are hanging their hats on the LUP, but I don't see that answered yet, and I doubt any of us on this board really have the expertise to know.

Of course, I could be wrong. And as I've said, I've got a feeling the merger is going to happen. Sure in the minority there, so could be wrong on that count too.

 

[Pi brat]

Wake asked Mowery how many west pilots had he consulted with when drafting the Conditions and Restrictions. Answer, "One, your honor" (I believe it was Burdick that he consulted with, but I may be wrong).

Wake saw through USAPA's transparent motives, as will any subsequent Judges.

What do you plan to do if the Judge asks how many times Cleary/Hummel has addressed the west pilots in PHX. Start thinking of a good excuse.

Have your stopped to think that maybe a few of us east pilots have reminded our leadership of this and suggested that if they are going to continue to pursue a DOH list or any change to section 22 that maybe they better learn from the mistakes of the past?

 

[luvn737s]

Parker is going to have to decide if the excuse usapa gives is legally legitimate or this whole thing ends up back in court. If we merge the APA inherits the law suit. Keith Wilson was told this in no uncertain terms at the BPR meeting

Can anyone explain the risk Parker has in just announcing that the company will only accept the Nic as the seniority proposal of Sect 22? Is the injunction about to expire or something?

 

[luvn737s]

Have your stopped to think that maybe a few of us east pilots have reminded our leadership of this and suggested that if they are going to continue to pursue a DOH list or any change to section 22 that maybe they better learn from the mistakes of the past?

Is there any evidence you can point to?

 

[cleardirect]

You should understand the Nic award allows every single AWA pilot - even the furloughed ones to hold a captain position on a merged list. Plan on a furloughed 2 year dude holding captain in dallas.

Complete BS.

 

[Black Swan]

Wake asked Mowery how many west pilots had he consulted with when drafting the Conditions and Restrictions. Answer, "One, your honor" (I believe it was Burdick that he consulted with, but I may be wrong).

Wake saw through USAPA's transparent motives, as will any subsequent Judges.

What do you plan to do if the Judge asks how many times Cleary/Hummel has addressed the west pilots in PHX. Start thinking of a good excuse.

Are you really going to go the Wake route? That was the judge who almost tried to impose the Nicolau, he was so clueless about internal union issues. I will never forget his classic musings of "losing sleep" over the trial. That is because he was told by an East attorney he had never seen anything like what was going on in Wakes ' courtroom. Going so far as to tell Wake he would have NMB lawyers PARACHUTING into his courtroom if he dared.
Seeing how he golfed with Bobby Baldocks' daddy, I would imagine there was considerable bias. The funniest part was the West believed it would stand, and then it goes to the 9th and literally is shredded. And Leonidas paid the entire bill to make it all come out! That was the classic! The case that was never ripe, and the stupid AZ judge setting up for a damages trial, when there wasn't even a contract to have damages! You have got to love Wake!
He got all the great 9th language that came out of it, bankrolled by the West pilots following their amateur lawyer Marty Harper. A few for those who forget:


"Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated."



"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3"



CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

 

[Phoenix]

...The question of whether USAPA really can or cannot change the Nic has not been answered yet, and Judge Silver left them hanging...

I would say that Silver made it very clear that USAPA has already presented a seniority list that does not violate their DRF, and she made it clear that no one will be able to question their legitimate union purpose until after ratification (which is really no different than any union during bargaining).

The ninth provided a very clear LUP and opened the barn door for a wide range of reasonableness. The 9th made no reference to the Nic as the standard by which a new proposal would be judged as to reasonableness, and neither did Silver... but both the 9th and Silver made it clear that the courts will not impose any injunction or allow any interference in USAPA's SLI proposal.

 

[Pi brat]

Is there any evidence you can point to?

Yeah, my post.

 

[Phoenix]

When does a LUP get judged. Not sure, but pretty confident, that your opinion or mine does not really matter.

Even ALPA has changed its SLI policy, ostensibly for a legitimate union purpose... Surely a little, tiny, fledgling union like USAPA could stand to learn a lot about a legitimate union purpose from such a stalwart as the mighty, aged, and wise ALPA.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Thanks..

As far as this APA member is concerned, there once were two airlines who agreed to binding arbitration. The arbitrator developed an integration. Game over.

Should LCC and AA merger, Nic it is. Anything else is B.S.

Exactly how many of you "APA member" TWA guys are there in the PHX base? Could be an interesting decision tree if AMR recalls you.Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

Can anyone explain the risk Parker has in just announcing that the company will only accept the Nic as the seniority proposal of Sect 22? Is the injunction about to expire or something?

I would think this would do it:

"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11th day of October, 2012."

Or this:

As for US Airways, it must
negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime.

How do you go to court, ask a question, use the proceedings to save millions of dollars, and THEN come back and say "Ah, we really don't think we can do it now!" ?

Years ago, if you can remember, I thought Parker would do just that. That the T/A's intent was clear and he would be bound to follow it. A friend of mine said that I wasn't looking far enough at it, that the T/A was not a simple contract, like me buying a piece of land from my neighbor, but a little part of a much bigger process. That labor law has it's own issues and that it was clear that a new union had the right to renegotiate the ENTIRE contract. Judge Silver just told the company that. How can they change their minds now? And, how can the company be a real judge of what a LUP is? That is like the fox deciding how the chickens should roost. Yet, Judge Silver said the company had to evaluate the proposal for that.

 

[Pi brat]

I would say that Silver made it very clear that USAPA has already presented a seniority list that does not violate their DRF, and she made it clear that no one will be able to question their legitimate union purpose until after ratification (which is really no different than any union during bargaining).

The ninth provided a very clear LUP and opened the barn door for a wide range of reasonableness. The 9th made no reference to the Nic as the standard by which a new proposal would be judged as to reasonableness, and neither did Silver... but both the 9th and Silver made it clear that the courts will not impose any injunction or allow any interference in USAPA's SLI proposal.

Yeah, if the union has a LUP. I can't remember the parts of 9ths ruling that make that clear, maybe they do. A friend of mine whose Dad was a big union guys says that term is so nebulous and wide that about anything goes.

One thing we know, how ever it goes there will be more lawsuits.

 

[cleardirect]

I would say that Silver made it very clear that USAPA has already presented a seniority list that does not violate their DRF, and she made it clear that no one will be able to question their legitimate union purpose until after ratification (which is really no different than any union during bargaining).

The ninth provided a very clear LUP and opened the barn door for a wide range of reasonableness. The 9th made no reference to the Nic as the standard by which a new proposal would be judged as to reasonableness, and neither did Silver... but both the 9th and Silver made it clear that the courts will not impose any injunction or allow any interference in USAPA's SLI proposal.

The only seniority list usapa has presented was found to be a DFR. Yes, yes the ninth ruled the case not ripe they did not rule on the merits. The ninth also said that usapa MAY be able to find some list that does not do the harm. But we do know what usapa presented and that was found to do harm.

I suggest that you read her ruling again.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court shall enter judgment dismissing
Counts I and III of the complaint and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II
of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach
its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.

What is it you guys like to call the Nicolau? A proposal because it has not been ratified. Judge Silver said usapa PROPOSAL that means the company has to look at and agree BEFORE the proposal is raitifed not after as you say.

Yes judge Silver did comment on the Nicolau as the standard.

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the
result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is
running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective
bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an
appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.

usapa is going to have to come up with a valid reason WHY they want to change a fair result of arbitration. Then usapa will have to defend that the other than Nicolau award is as fair to the west pilots.

You are correct there is no injunction. All she did was strongly warn usapa to be very careful moving away from the Nicolau. She did not agree with any excuse usapa has presented so far she just allowed usapa to try and find an LUP. Seham tried a few that failed. So I aks again what is the LUP of WHY usapa wants to use something other than the Nicolau.

When you can convince the company they may even talk to you

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, yes the ninth ruled the case not ripe they did not rule on the merits.

Again, you are correct but when you guys talk about this you seem to have the impression that because they didn't rule on the merits that it means they agreed with them. The also didn't agree that Judge Wake WAS right about the merits.

Tunnel vision.

 

[Phoenix]

...

When you can convince the company they may even talk to you

The company will come talking as soon as they want to move forward.

ALPA changed its SLI policy for a legitimate union purpose, did they not? If they had used their current SLI policy, rather than their old one they discarded, then we would all still be ALPA dues payers.

I think any reasonable person could find an SLI based on the corrected ALPA policy to be well within the wide range of reasonableness, especially seeing that the ALPA policy was corrected as a result of the previous policy's inability to support union objectives. One could also find that all the other unions on property used DOH, for legitimate union purposes. The risk is exactly where it was predicted to be at Wye River.