OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Outsiders like jury members??
Bring it on. Lets show them the real NIC and see how that grabs them. I'm sure that is what you and Marty want to avoid at all cost.

Driver...

We did. It took them less then an hour to nail your BS to the wall.

 

[Move2CLT]

I vote we just put Move2CLT on the stand. That should take care of it.

On second thought; if a few union members of ANY kind are empaneled...well...the inestimable value of Callaway's testimony that "Seniority isn't earned..." would serve to benefit as well.

We could put you on the stand and you can bore everyone to death.

 

[Move2CLT]

No. You just want to, but haven't been able to actually make it happen and get away with it. 😉

Just a matter of time.

You, on the other hand, can't seem to get away with your BS even though you run the union and have the majority. We've stopped you at every turn.

AND you're on LOA 93.

Sukah.

 

[Pi brat]

You might want to check your facts with your merger committee.

Yeah CG! 🙂

 

[Ames]

Sort of am grateful although I passed up a couple opportunities to put my money on Doug and I wonder if it was the right bet. You should be thankful too. You were yesterday when you admitted that we were carrying your sorry ass.

I find Doug a good investment. I have made more trading AWA and LCC stock than I have earned here in 15 years. He's pretty consistent.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Outsiders like jury members??
Bring it on. Lets show them the real NIC and see how that grabs them. I'm sure that is what you and Marty want to avoid at all cost.

Driver...

The biggest problem I see for the east is the way they went about it. It's easy to see through, and any sympathy the jury may have(had had) will be lost in how they are turned off. Not many people like a bully. That obviously does not apply to all, but rather in the aggregate. That's not a taunt, just an observation(or opinion.)

The trail of bread crumbs has already been left.

 

[Pi brat]

AND you're on LOA 93.

Sukah.

Wow! You went almost a day without bring that up! Winning!

Again, uhaul. What is you DOH so I can show you your windfall. I guess you didn't get your buddies work. Don't blame them, I guess they think as much of you as we do.

 

[Pi brat]

I find Doug a good investment. I have made more trading AWA and LCC stock than I have earned here in 15 years. He's pretty consistent.

Good for you Ames, I happy for you. Really.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Good Lord. With the 517 east pilots going on top, how did I end up at almost the exact same relative position on the date the Nic was awarded and losing relative position vs. unmerged every year after that?

Why does EF deserve the massive bump in relative position that gets bigger every year? Putting him at a better relative position, on a bigger list, with better opportunities if it's not a windfall?

You've made this claim before but without actual numbers how can I possibly comment? The math behind the award isn't very complicated and your claim doesn't seem to make sense unless you are still making the apples to oranges comparison to the NIC vs. standalone.

Deserve is word without meaning in this context. Every pilot started out on their respective list and were integrated using the fairest method a third-party neutral could come up with. What happens after 1, 5, or 20 years is only a small criteria on an SLI process in comparison to ensuring that each person can retain the seat and status he had at the time of the merger. The NIC accomplished that objective and did so well within the criteria called for in the ALPA merger policy and the TA.

 

[Pi brat]

You've made this claim before but without actual numbers how can I possibly comment? The math behind the award isn't very complicated and your claim doesn't seem to make sense unless you are still making the apples to oranges comparison to the NIC vs. standalone.

Deserve is word without meaning in this context. Every pilot started out on their respective list and were integrated using the fairest method a third-party neutral could come up with. What happens after 1, 5, or 20 years is only a small criteria on an SLI process in comparison to ensuring that each person can retain the seat and status he had at the time of the merger. The NIC accomplished that objective and did so well within the criteria called for in the ALPA merger policy and the TA.

I disagree.

 

[Pi brat]

Ok, uhaul if you don't want to give me a DOH then just give me a range of west seniority numbers.

 

[Pi brat]

The biggest problem I see for the east is the way they went about it.

From what I have heard and read the jury in PHX felt the same way.

 

[luvn737s]

That does highlight why the east has so much trouble with the NIC award. I did not count exact numbers and I do not know the name of the senior 1988 guy that was furloughed from the east, but there looked to be only about 150 to 200 guys in between the junior bus capt. and the 1989 guys that are all under the west on NIC.

By the end of 2013 every f/o left on the east would have all the west guys senior to them under NIC. Thats why I don't see any possible way to ever get anything NIC voted in, at least until 1000 guys or so retire.

So you think that NIC should have integrated the furloughed pilots who may or may not have come back? Where has that been done before?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The term "award" is simply the language of the arbitration process. Both groups and all pilots are the beneficiaries of the "award". Seniority isn't earned it is rather a metric of relative position against your peers. The only way to gain seniority is for forces beyond your control or your level of contribution to change your relative position on a list. Not quitting or getting fired is the only action you can take related to seniority.

Seniority is a metric? PLEEZ, Economics aren't constant , But a DOH is bend it anyway you want CALLY your toast and it only gets worse from here, you think your hubs, the one lefts financials are going to support your litrigation going forward? My guess take a look at your contract and your "SCOPE" ! Regardless of any merger your "TOAST"!

 

[Pi brat]

So you think that NIC should have integrated the furloughed pilots who may or may not have come back? Where has that been done before?

Thanks for asking.

"A second issue, labelled "explosive" by Gill, concerned the manner in which approximately 400 Pan Am pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were to be integrated. This large number of furloughees resulted from Pan Am's switch from smaller planes to B747s, the largest wide-bodied aircraft, and Pan Am's poor financial health in the preceding few years. Gill stated that this furlough situation created"a head-on clash over the relative equities as between large numbers of National airmen hired between 1968 and 1978 and actively employed at the time of the merger, and large numbers of these Pan Am furloughees with earlier dates of hire who still have recall rights but who brought no active jobs to the merger." (Gill Op. at 8).
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Gill's solution was to calculate the Pan Am furloughees' length of service at the time of their recall, and to slot them into the list by comparing their length of service with that of the active airmen at that time. (An exception was made for about 34 furloughed Pan Am pilots who had received notice of recall before January 19, 1980). He indicated a willingness, had the parties (or the "JANUS" group, representing the furloughees) submitted a proposal estimating the likely dates of recall of the furloughees and the likely length of service of the active pilots at those dates, to integrate the furloughees on that basis. However, no such proposal was forthcoming "[p]erhaps because of the difficulties in fashioning projections of that nature." Id. at 41. While noting that his solution to the furloughee problem might seem novel, Gill observed that
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"the problem itself is novel--there has not been any previous merger case called to my attention where such massive numbers of furloughees, with such long periods of being off the property, were pitted against active airmen from the other airline who brought current jobs to the merger."