OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Federal law has chosen arbitration as the method to settle seniority.

Cite the case and/or law.

 

[prechilill]

Sure, outsourcing the SLI was a brilliant scheme to avoid responsibility to the pilots that paid dues and was counter to the very notion of both unionism and representation. It was a scheme, but a profitable scheme.

So now arbitrations are "outsourcing"? Scott, just because you are pissed about not getting a DOH cram down, that isn't an indictment against the arbitration process- arbitrations are the mainstay in dispute settlements in America. Perhaps you would be happier in Egypt where there is no longer judicial review? (it's dry there too, like Scottsdale)
CYIC

 

[Ames]

I'm a little weary of the faceless volley back & forth. You east folk have even outed some of your own that oppose your date of hire land grab.

Many of you have guessed correctly. I have the same moniker that I use everywhere: Cactusboy53. It's part of my e-mail address.

I am Dave Simmons. A PHX based pilot on the Airbus, and a current PHX representative. It is my goal to represent my PHX based pilots to the best of my ability.

It is my agrument that simply changing the name of the CBA & its Constitution & Bylaws does not allow the new CBA to cherry pick what portions of the contracts, letters of agreements & side letters that it wishes to follow. The Nicolau seniority list is the only existing legal seniority list, and IMHO it will be the only one used in a JCBA within our organization and/or with any merger parnter. Contrary to the exclamation "We've WON!!", you have won delay and nothing else. Further, you have most certainly lost countless monies, benefits and time off.

So how about it cyber-kiddies? Who be you? I could guess, but let's face it.....your monikers aren't nearly as much a give away as an e-mail address.

Who is:

• MUTATIS MUTANDIS
• luvthe9
• Claxon
• nevergiveup
• EastUS1
• A320 Driver
• end_of_alpa
• nycbusdriver
• Phoenix
• Walmartgreeter

Step up. Be a man (or woman) and claim your bad-self. We already know how right you are, tell us who you are. Don't be affraid. Hiding behind a keyboard no way to go through life.

Dave

Dave, you know that I consider you a friend and I have the utmost respect for you. That said, I think that you're pissing in the wind in attempting to have any realistic dialogue with these eastholes. The ones you listed have repeatedly proven that they are unworthy of your efforts.

Toying with them for entertainment value is one thing. Actual respectful communication with any one of those scumbags is impossible. I can only hope that when this situation is finally resolved and we have a combined operation that aholes like them are a minority.

 

[Ames]

Like to mail me some dog poo?

Driver...

What's your address? I know a Great Dane that would love to contribute.

 

[Ames]

the award was no where near the shuttle award... I was shuttle and lost 9 months of time with NIC 1.

I lost 17 years with the NIC 2...

Big Fing difference...

Waaa! Waaa! Waaa! Tell us, oh long suffering one, how does one lose years? Where is your relative seniority on the Nic compared to what it was? Or..... were you furloughed when AWA bought Useless Air?

 

[cleardirect]

Cite the case and/or law.

Really? Are you that out of touch and clueless. You don't know the answer to your question?

If you can't figure out the basics you are a waste of time to try and educate.

 

[cleardirect]

I see your point. East and or West gets "preferential" hiring. Still in seniority order based on date of when hired.

Again, as you well know, all of us on BOTH sides believe grievance rulings in favor of the company were wrong.

You ARE wrong from the perspective you sit in. Continue wallowing, but you never DID answer my question about your tag line.

How is it that simple facts confuse you?

I see your point. East and or West gets "preferential" hiring. Still in seniority order based on date of when hired.

Is Dave O'dell with 8 years DOH senior to new hires?

 

[Ames]

He told me the year he was hired and I looked it up. It was close if not reverse. No matter, Dave O'Dell is JUNIOR to me over here since his recall East but SENIOR to me according to your math.

IT AIN'T HAPPENING.

You were obviously furloughed when this "merger" took place. I don't believe anywhere in the history of mergers were furloughed workers placed above active ones.

You have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO EXPECT TO BE SENIOR TO DAVE ODELL.

That is a big reason the west will see this thing to the end. NO FORMERLY FURLOUGHED PILOT SHOULD EVER BE PLACED ABOVE AN ACTIVE ONE.

Back when we were in the process of negotiating seniority I would have considered a longevity centered integration, providing the furloughed pilots were placed below active ones.

Clinging to the hope that formerly furloughed east pilots will be placed above active ones is desperate at best.

 

[Ames]

He told me the year he was hired and I looked it up. It was close if not reverse. No matter, Dave O'Dell is JUNIOR to me over here since his recall East but SENIOR to me according to your math.

IT AIN'T HAPPENING.

You were obviously furloughed when this "merger" took place. I don't believe anywhere in the history of mergers were furloughed workers placed above active ones.

You have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO EXPECT TO BE SENIOR TO DAVE ODELL.

That is a big reason the west will see this thing to the end. NO FORMERLY FURLOUGHED PILOT SHOULD EVER BE PLACED ABOVE AN ACTIVE ONE.

Back when we were in the process of negotiating seniority I would have considered a longevity centered integration, providing the furloughed pilots were placed below active ones.

Clinging to the hope that formerly furloughed east pilots will be placed above active ones is desperate at best.

 

[cleardirect]

How about it. Here I'll post the question again:

"What is usapa’s legitimate union purpose; for anything?"

My question is, what is ANY "legitimate union purpose" for pilots here at US Airways as the world turns. Would the pilots be better served without a union? Since a BPR rep from the West is on here I would like to hear how him and/or his fellow reps feels.

Overall, does USAPA represent his constituents?

The legitimate union purpose of any union is to enforce and improve the collective bargaining agreement.

So far usapa has failed.

5 years later usapa has not improved the pilot’s life at all. Usapa has failed to enforce the contract for the west.
Usapa spent 10’s of thousands of dollars fighting the snap back only to fail. Which would have benefited only the east.

Usapa, east pilots engaged in an illegal job action last year cost hundreds of thousands of in legal fees resulting in an injunction and removing the single tool to get management’s attention when it was time and important. East pilots did it because they were mad.

Usapa has spent 10’s of thousands of dollar fighting the MDA grievance while at the same time rolled over on the west distance learning grievance. Not even going to arbitration just handing the company $2.5 million from the west.

Usapa has failed to enforce the west ACARS grievance which benefited the east and harmed the west.

Would the pilots be better served without a union? Under any other circumstances no. If we had a union that represented ALL pilots equally or if the union had and credibility.

But what we have now is a union that the company has isolated, ignored and dismissed. While they have the obligation to negotiate they have no reason. The company has set usapa aside so currently we are operating as if we have no real union.

So yes we would be better off with a real union instead of this poor excuse single issue tax collector we have now.

Does usapa represent its constituents? A small group but not all. Usapa represents the angry pilots that that have a single issue, DOH. East pilots complain about ALPA but never did anything about it. Usapa is demonstrably worse yet once again east pilots do nothing about it.

Are we better off with a union? Yes! Any other union besides usapa.

Now answer my question.

What is usapa’s legitimate union purpose for ignoring binding arbitration and using a seniority list that benefit every east pilot while harming every west pilot?

 

[nevergiveup]

Really! You want to use safety as criteria for seniority integration.

I agree. Let's go. Let's put the airline that crashed 5 in 5 years against the safest airline with NO fatal crashes. I would love to make that case.

Where you go off the beam id trying to equate time to safety. You guys do have more time yet are arguably the most unsafe.

I'll have just one more, by the way, are we cleared to push?

 

[Phoenix]

So for the last 50 years ALPA has been using the same "scheme" but no one has said anything. East pilots had been through 4 other mergers using arbitration and you say nothing. But now you call arbitration a "scheme" because you don't like the outcome.

A much more likely explaination is east pilots have no integrity and are doing everything you can to avoid THIS arbitration. Federal law has chosen arbitration as the method to settle seniority. Justify all you want. But arbitration is a fair process.

Unlike the one usapa has tried to impose. Where one side gets to make up the rules, chooses the team and assigns the refs.

For 50 years outsourcing the SLI process got them lucky and kept the minority at bay. The folks they outsourced the task to didn't screw it up too badly, except of course in the view of a minority of pilots that were just stuck with the outcome. It was always a scheme to avoid responsibility (and hopefully repercussions) and it still is.

Outsourcing is outsourcing, even if a union does it... especially if a union does it. History speaks for itself. For all the good things ALPA ever did, it failed at its most foundational role.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Really? Are you that out of touch and clueless. You don't know the answer to your question?

If you can't figure out the basics you are a waste of time to try and educate.

Like i thought. No answer.

And no, I'm not contributing to your already weak legal foundation. Your community college may offer a basic course in Labor Law 101 or Contracts 100.

Enjoy class.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The legitimate union purpose of any union is to enforce and improve the collective bargaining agreement.

So far usapa has failed.

5 years later usapa has not improved the pilot’s life at all. Usapa has failed to enforce the contract for the west.
Usapa spent 10’s of thousands of dollars fighting the snap back only to fail. Which would have benefited only the east.

Usapa, east pilots engaged in an illegal job action last year cost hundreds of thousands of in legal fees resulting in an injunction and removing the single tool to get management’s attention when it was time and important. East pilots did it because they were mad.

Usapa has spent 10’s of thousands of dollar fighting the MDA grievance while at the same time rolled over on the west distance learning grievance. Not even going to arbitration just handing the company $2.5 million from the west.

Usapa has failed to enforce the west ACARS grievance which benefited the east and harmed the west.

Would the pilots be better served without a union? Under any other circumstances no. If we had a union that represented ALL pilots equally or if the union had and credibility.

But what we have now is a union that the company has isolated, ignored and dismissed. While they have the obligation to negotiate they have no reason. The company has set usapa aside so currently we are operating as if we have no real union.

So yes we would be better off with a real union instead of this poor excuse single issue tax collector we have now.

Does usapa represent its constituents? A small group but not all. Usapa represents the angry pilots that that have a single issue, DOH. East pilots complain about ALPA but never did anything about it. Usapa is demonstrably worse yet once again east pilots do nothing about it.

Are we better off with a union? Yes! Any other union besides usapa.

Now answer my question.

What is usapa’s legitimate union purpose for ignoring binding arbitration and using a seniority list that benefit every east pilot while harming every west pilot?

Keep tilting at windmills. You can remove the sign off the door but the occupants remain the same.

 

[luvthe9]

Wow, the westies are really coming unglued, worst I've seen in quite awhile. Where is our potty mouth abusive JJ, I for sure thought he would be on.