OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Dripping with Irony....a more complete idiot one will not find.

Go live your pilot wannabe life somewhere else.

 

[cleardirect]

She said "a fair result." Not the ONLY fair result.

As always, fair is in the eye of the beholder.

Judge Silver said that a neutral arbitrator is strong evidence of a fair result.

How about we let a neutral third party decide fairness instead of biased pilots that have something to gain.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Nope, very far from done on the fairness argument.

You forget, absent the merger, no east pilot would hold anything on the east!

So, your windfall in the Nic will just have to stay, but the West is okay with that!

Absent the merger no west pilot would hold anything on the West either.

Ask Doug again, I'd really like to see his face because even he's tired of your assertions.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Judge Silver said that a neutral arbitrator is strong evidence of a fair result.

How about we let a neutral third party decide fairness instead of biased pilots that have something to gain.

How about we stay separate and let East attrition continue? Yesterday I found out they need to hire more than expected after this bid and sooner rather than later.

You're welcome to put your hand in the bucket of water and pull it out to see how fast that hole gets filled from the open market. Lyle says there's no problem finding qualified pilots.

How about we just let the free market decide? That way all this "union" stuff will go away. You're welcome to quit over there and come over here on the bottom. We'll give you a good recommendation.

 

[cleardirect]

Let's keep it basic and real here:

What can you curently bid or hold in PHX? Now then; what could your insanely inflated nic number allow you to hold out east? How many more years worked than yourself does the person placed just below you on the nic obscenity have? Are you truly that "special" a person that you somehow, magically "deserve" to be ahead of that person? If so; what, in your honest estimation, makes you all that "special" and "deserving"? If the only answer you can give here is some petulant variation on "But, but..St. Nic thought I'm cute!"...we've nothing more to discuss.

You want personally undeserved, insanely and artifically enhanced advancement over others in the same class and craft who've worked far longer than yourself...period! It's really just that simple.

Are we done with the "fairness" BS now? 😉

Your entire theory of what you consider a windfall is based on "time worked". That was not a factor of ALPA merger policy. You ignore all other factors. Such as status. Should being furloughed or a captain matter? Should the type of aircraft matter?

When the republic F9 arbitration happened Midwest had no airplanes and was shut down. Should that be taken into account or ignore for a single element of how long they worked there? Should all you time as a commercial pilot be taken into account. How about how long you paid paid union dues?

No you guys want to look at a single factor. That is not reality. You can say it was a windfall but the guy that got to decide said no.

If you consider that a captain remained a captain and a furloughed pilot remained a furloughed pilot a windfall. What the hell would you call a furloughed pilot being senior to a captain? Now that is a windfall.

You point exclusively at what you consider a windfall yet ignore another part of merger policy. Career expectations. The east expectation was 100% liquidation. No job.

 

[luvthe9]

How about we stay separate and let East attrition continue? Yesterday I found out they need to hire more than expected after this bid and sooner rather than later.

You're welcome to put your hand in the bucket of water and pull it out to see how fast that hole gets filled from the open market. Lyle says there's no problem finding qualified pilots.

How about we just let the free market decide? That way all this "union" stuff will go away. You're welcome to quit over there and come over here on the bottom. We'll give you a good recommendation.

Clear and the others are starting to see the reality of WYE RIVER now. It finally came home to bite them. They can't get the Nic, and the East pilots are accelerating in upgrades across the board. It is a dangerous position with a lot of risk to be separated so clearly in one hub, with no growth. The new hires see the benefit of the West being totally out of their careers. They are absolutely never going to vote for the Nic so it delays their upgrades.They are supposedly using line instructors now in CLT for part of the training process because they are so short. The next bid is going to be even bigger. Hiring all next year.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Dripping with Irony....a more complete idiot one will not find.

Irony - isn't that the opposite of wrinkly?

 

[cleardirect]

Any human being that's a member of the same class and craft, and honestly feels themselves magically entitled to usurp the more years worked of others, to my mind, has absolutely no merit...or are you suggesting that the west people are all infused with personal "merit" of some unknown, unmeasurable and invisible nature that somehow entitles them? 😉

Your single argument. Years worked.

Same old argument rejected by many arbitrators.

You ignore all other factors.

Just keep repeating it maybe someday someone will believe it. But you are going to be disappointed again in an American merger when time worked is not the only factor used.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What advice would I give Gary Hummel and Steve Bradford?

The same advice I have always given since I've been employed at US Airways, advice which they are NOT taking.

Flightline: What advice would you give to the APA leadership today?

Captain Lyons: “Officers were members of the Negotiating Committee, the President was on all committees and monitored all expenses.

We didn't have closed sessions of the Board, and there wasn't any need for a parliamentarian. American Airlines needed reorganization.

Perhaps we do, too. “Above all, talk to the pilots — they are the ones who elected you.

“The pilots of American Airlines did a great service on behalf of all pilots in helping to prevent the airline's bankruptcy. When the membership speaks, listen.”

APA Captain Lyons, Flightline, Fall 2003
https://public.alliedpilots.org/APA/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=zlfxFgbfhZQ%3d&tabid=59

 

[end_of_alpa]

Your entire theory of what you consider a windfall is based on "time worked". That was not a factor of ALPA merger policy. You ignore all other factors. Such as status. Should being furloughed or a captain matter? Should the type of aircraft matter?

When the republic F9 arbitration happened Midwest had no airplanes and was shut down. Should that be taken into account or ignore for a single element of how long they worked there? Should all you time as a commercial pilot be taken into account. How about how long you paid paid union dues?


No you guys want to look at a single factor. That is not reality. You can say it was a windfall but the guy that got to decide said no.

If you consider that a captain remained a captain and a furloughed pilot remained a furloughed pilot a windfall. What the hell would you call a furloughed pilot being senior to a captain? Now that is a windfall.

I thought that there could have been a much better metric using many of the components you speak of but that East/West MEC stew you speak of became caustic and we have been unable to come to terms until the courts decided....decided in USAPA's favor, I might add.

The only hope now is that maybe the courts will dig a little deeper if and when the next McCaskill Bond merger happens.

In this case, the "windfall" you believe didn't exist with LOA 96 has certainly run it's course and as of now USAPA is free to bargain and you'll just have to wait your turn for many years to come.

Please commence tilting at windmills again and please have a nice holiday.

 

[luvthe9]

Your single argument. Years worked.

Same old argument rejected by many arbitrators.

You ignore all other factors.

Just keep repeating it maybe someday someone will believe it. But you are going to be disappointed again in an American merger when time worked is not the only factor used.

You kids out West are missing the boat with your lock on 2005 and the Nic. Time has passed you by. You change by not changing and the result is going to be very unpleasant. Every passing day affirms the fact Nic got it wrong. Nobody is going to consider an arbitration that was a failure, and was never implemented. WYE RIVER summed it all up. The risk came home to roost.

 

[EastUS1]

That was not a factor of ALPA merger policy.

We're done right there. I've never given so much as a hair off a rat's tail for ALPA's contrivances of convenience. I'd wanted that completely worthless little "association" gone years before the clearly toxic, nic insanity was ever produced.

Should the day ever come when you can honestly explain to me, through just what incredible perversion of spirit you/anyone could ever be able to walk up to any other pilot, that's worked far longer than yourself...and self-righteously tell him that you, by "virtue" and "merit" of some arbitrator's whimsical notions, should "honorably" be magically made instantly "senior" to that person...well...I've no apologies here, but must simply note that I can't even begin to share, or even want to understand that level of poisonous "thought"...and am very glad of that!

"It's ALL about MEEE!" and "Whatever I can get is what's RIGHT!" just don't register any top scores as an ideology or code of ethics to my thinking. Your actual mileage out west clearly varies there. 😉

luvthe9: "Every passing day affirms the fact Nic got it wrong."
end_of_alpa: "In this case, the "windfall" you believe didn't exist with LOA 96 has certainly run it's course and as of now USAPA is free to bargain and you'll just have to wait your turn for many years to come."

So it indeed seems gentlemen.

 

[cleardirect]

We're done right there. I've never given so much as hair off a rat's tail about ALPA's contrivances of convenience.

Should the day ever come when you can honestly explain to me, through just what incredible perversion of spirit you/anyone could ever be able to walk up to any other pilot, that's worked far longer than yourself...and self-righteously tell him that you, by "virtue" and "merit" of some arbitrator's whimsical notions, should "honorably" be magically made instantly "senior" to that person...well...I've no apologies here, but must simply note that I can't even begin to share, or even want to understand that level of poisonous "thought"...and am very glad of that!

"It's ALL about MEEE!" and "Whatever I can get is what's RIGHT!" just don't register any top scores as an ideology or code of ethics to my thinking. Your actual mileage out west clearly varies there. 😉

luvthe9: "Every passing day affirms the fact Nic got it wrong."
end_of_alpa: "In this case, the "windfall" you believe didn't exist with LOA 96 has certainly run it's course and as of now USAPA is free to bargain and you'll just have to wait your turn for many years to come."

So it indeed seems gentlemen.

If you could honestly come up with any reason beyond " I have been here longer" it might be an interesting conversation. But your single factor is weak.

BTW so good of you to ignore the rules if you don't like them. ALPA was your union at the time. A MAJORITY of pilots decided what the policy was. You knew what it was and how it worked. Ignoring it after the fact, well, childish.

The courts have determined that usapa inherited that merger policy so you can not care about it but you do have to live with it.

 

[Metroyet]

I thought that there could have been a much better metric using many of the components you speak of but that East/West MEC stew you speak of became caustic and we have been unable to come to terms until the courts decided....decided in USAPA's favor, I might add.

The only hope now is that maybe the courts will dig a little deeper if and when the next McCaskill Bond merger happens.

In this case, the "windfall" you believe didn't exist with LOA 96 has certainly run it's course and as of now USAPA is free to bargain and you'll just have to wait your turn for many years to come.

Please commence tilting at windmills again and please have a nice holiday.

We all know what Silver said. What, pray tell, is the LUO?

 

[traderjake]

Calling ANYONE who works for a living a lier and a cheat (and a scab, for that matter) ESPECIALLY when everyone knows who you are carries SIGNIFICANT repercussions. Remember the web boards and what you post can and will be used against you in any court. You MAY be innocent but the costs still add up. I am not threatening anyone myself, I'm simply admonishing that "you reap what you sow".

Nice try but this ain't Junior High School and you ain't coercing me.

Go ahead and threaten me, we'll see if you're guilty of union harassment.