OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

Dude, you need to go back and read NIC I...seriously! Trump DOH is EXACTLY what this pilot group tried to give Shuttle. And the Shuttle NEVER EVER asked for there Eastern DOH. They were opposed to Shuttle DOH. The slotted list was THEIR IDEA!

Go back and read it. I talked to their negotiator and he told me they got almost everything they asked for.

Come on now...if we are going to debate this, lets do it with NIC I as a source document, OK?

Driver...

I never said they did want their Trump DOH, I'm sure they didn't, so what. What they should have gotten however is their Trump DOH, with fences of some duration.

This link: ( http://cf.alpa.org/m...10/merg1000.pdf ) will take you to an ALPA document that will illustrate my point as to why we should never have strayed from straight DOH ever. Starting down that slippery slope many years ago is exactly why we are so mired in this bottomless quicksand pit today.

By the way I do not advocate an industry wide DOH list, only on a company by company basis and in the event of a merger.


seajay

 

[A320 Driver]

I never said they did want their Trump DOH, I'm sure they didn't, so what. What they should have gotten however is their Trump DOH, with fences of some duration.

This link: ( http://cf.alpa.org/m...10/merg1000.pdf ) will take you to an ALPA document that will illustrate my point as to why we should never have strayed from straight DOH ever. Starting down that slippery slope many years ago is exactly why we are so mired in this bottomless quicksand pit today.

By the way I do not advocate an industry wide DOH list, only on a company by company basis and in the event of a merger.


seajay

You wore me down...I'm going to bed. Have a good evening!

Driver...

 

[cleardirect]

"Absolutely agree! DOH should have never been messed with PERIOD. It should have remained an undisputed issue, across the board, for all mergers, at all airlines."

Perfectly put sir. We see the results of doing otherwise every day here. The management of AWA/"US" alone couldn't have possibly gotten a better gift than the nic insanity.

If only A/M had listened to you guys. If only ALPA had listened to you guys. If only B/M had listened to you guys.

You can wish the way world should be all day long. But what if is not reality.

DOH is not the only factor when merge SENIORITY lists.

What was the method the us airways pilots wanted to use with Trump shuttle? Hint it was not DOH. Anyone care to say what the proposed method from the east was? If you had consistent positions throughout your career you may have some credibility. But you have proven to use whatever method works best for you at the time.

Better be careful. APA may use the same method against you that you tried against trump. Roland wilder has warned you about being on the lowest contact going into a merger.

 

[cleardirect]

We finally got rid of a chronic, parasitical infestation = alpa. What have you ever done to try and improve anything?

So the answer is nothing.getting rid of one of the union that could have implemented a national seniority list did not get you what you say you want now did it?

You really don't think before you post do you?

BTW what has getting rid of ALPA done for you so far?

New contract? Improved working conditions? A more honest and responsive union?

I would say getting rid of ALPA was a waste of time.

Now try answering my question. What did you do to get a national seniority list or cause DOH to be the only criteria used during SENIORITY integration?

 

[jetjok1]

Not sure where this is coming from/going. Fifidriver apologized for a previous post and I accepted it, as did others, in post 5061.

Driver...

So did I........you skipped some posts

 

[nycbusdriver]

I don't know what your seniority bracket happens to be, but I'm sure whatever place you find yourself, your suggestion would either improve your position or you are immune to the results of such a re-write. Otherwise, I just can't believe you would intentionally disadvantage yourself for principle.

Driver...

I think those of us in the "517" who have supported the junior guys in this anti-Nic effort should be truly offended at your last sentence.

You can't believe that someone would intentionally disadvantage him/herself for principle, while exactly that happens in your face at your job every day?

 

[Phoenix]

...
You can wish the way world should be all day long. But what if is not reality...

...If we have to correct the seniority list it will be anyone hired after 2005 will be senior to east pilots still left on the original east list. Pay back is a ####. These guy wishing for attrition only cuts down on you majority.

Clear you are on a roll.

Reality... and Wishing for attrition...

The West are the only ones wishing for the benefits of attrition, and by Doug's own account the West will have none of the East's, and none of their own, through at least all of next year. Certainly the West is experiencing harm as we speak. East pilots are moving up... some are getting weekends off for the first time in a decade, others are getting a line, some are upgrading.. again, some are moving to bigger equipment.. its is a reality, a one sided benefit, made even more beneficial because one side is simply not involved. While folks on the East get to experience real progress the folks on the West get to take notes and add zeros to the damages they promise each other that they will pursue until they get them, to their dying day if need be. And some will stick it out. I hear some Republic guys are still in court trying to get a nickel on the dollar, or maybe it was their grandkids still at it.

Pick what you want. Progress up the food chain now, or tabulate IOUs for the future. Its just that simple. It might not be right, it might not be wrong. It just is, and until we, all of we, figure out something workable it will continue to just be the way it is.

Its a shame really.

Better be careful. ..

 

[nycbusdriver]

As far as Empire Navajo pilots go, are you suggesting that they are somehow "not worthy" because they flew them there in the distant past? Should the former "mainline" America West Dash-8 pilots have been somehow considered second class pilots and permanently disadvantaged on the West list?

...

seajay

A Part 135 Navajo date-of-hire is not worthy to be given equivalent consideration when integrating into a Part 121 carrier. "Old" Piedmont Airlines operated a Part 135 service (Aviation Division) with things like King Airs, and Barons, etc. When those pilots were lucky enough to move to the Airline Division, they got a brand new airline date-of-hire, yet still got other benefits, like passes, based on their Aviation Division date-of-hire. No one questioned it, because to think otherwise would have been absurd.

 

[nycbusdriver]

In other words, they couldn't pick Shuttle, then come back later and want to be reinstated onto the Eastern seniority list.

Of course they couldn't "pick Shuttle" and then come back. They were leaving one carrier to go to work for a new, different, separate carrier. When US Air and "old" Piedmont hired many of the EAL pilots, those carriers also demanded that they resign from EAL. (Psst! Almost without exception, it's standard practice.)

In this industry, when you resign from an airline, your DOH from that airline goes away. Why has that always been so difficult for some folks to fathom? Once resigned, it does not magically reappear when a new corporate transaction comes along. Resign is just that.

 

[EastUS1]

So the answer is nothing.getting rid of one of the union that could have implemented a national seniority list did not get you what you say you want now did it?

Alpa "could have implemented a national seniority list..."? Thanks for the Joke of the Day. Alpa wasn't even any semblance of a "union" for many, many years. All it existed for was to collect monies and enrichen an utterly worthless little cabal of largely or entirely non-flying politicians that sometimes put on pilot costumes for photo shoots or public appearances....when they weren't otherwise occupied giving up the airline industry to RJ's and establishing pay rates for those surrendered spots that would embarass even crack hookers....meanwhile of course; always increasing the funds received by the pathetic little pigs at the top of alpa. Alpa provided a pipeline for the truly worthless, who really didn't want to actually fly airplanes, to strive for the enriching paradise and lazy retirement that was/is Herndon...period! Placing alpa and the words union or national together in any phrase can only provide cynical laughter in response.

You haven't been around this industry very long, have you?

cleardirect: "You really don't think before you post do you?"

 

[Claxon]

exactly! USCABA has logged far more time than ALPA under LOA93.

Voluntarily spending a full THIRD of a 30 year career on LOA93!!? And still tilting at Windmills high on the DOH hallucinogens.

You west pilots now expect far more from USAPA than you previously expected from alpa and your own west pilot group efforts to negotiate and handle grievances with your former Franke taught CEO's.

It is not the Unions that represented you, it is the Franke taught management you idiots. They have your non major airline pilot number.

News Release​

Release #02.007
January 16, 2002

America West Pilots Call for Return to Mediated Negotiations
PHOENIX — The pilots of America West Airlines, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), today requested that the National Mediation Board quickly resume mediated negotiations between the union and America West management for a new contract. "Management has shown their commitment to compensating the government through the terms of their loan guarantee," said Eric Edwards, vice chairman of the America West unit of ALPA. "Now it is time for management to show the same commitment to the employees who have repeatedly sacrificed and invested in this airline by resuming good faith negotiations with us."

As part of the agreement with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, America West committed to keeping labor costs to those outlined in the company’s seven-year business plan. "Management has an obligation to negotiate with the unions representing America West employees no matter what commitments they make to the government," Edwards said. The pilots believe that this condition imposed by the federal government could interfere with their collective bargaining rights and are exploring all legal options if those rights are restricted.
"The federal government, which is mediating our negotiations as a neutral third party, could become a major shareholder in the airline," Edwards said. "This could present a conflict of interest that would compromise our legal bargaining rights."

The pilots, who have been negotiating with America West since February 2000, lag considerably behind their counterparts at other major carriers despite having much more demanding schedules and constraints within which to fly. They are seeking to address the following issues in their negotiations:

• No pension and no retiree medical benefits;
• Scheduling enhancements that increase productivity while on duty and, at the same time, restore sensible rest requirements;
• A commitment from management to reverse the punitive attitude toward employees and comply with the collective bargaining agreement, which they have failed to do as evidenced by the more than 300 grievances filed by pilots in 2001 alone;
• Job protection measures that limit management’s intention to outsource the pilots’ flying careers to smaller carriers; and
•Hourly pay rates that are as much as 74 percent below major airline industry average.​

Including the 1,800 America West pilots, ALPA represents 66,000 members at 46 airlines in the United States and Canada.

# # #​

ALPA Contact: Scott Sherrin, (602) 306-4100

 

[Claxon]

Where is the United pilot industry leading contract 767jetz bragged about

 

[Walmartgreeter]

You west pilots now expect far more from USAPA than you previously expected from alpa and your own west pilot group efforts to negotiate and handle grievances with your former Franke CEO.    

News Release​

Release #02.007
January 16, 2002

America West Pilots Call for Return to Mediated Negotiations
PHOENIX — The pilots of America West Airlines, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), today requested that the National Mediation Board quickly resume mediated negotiations between the union and America West management for a new contract. "Management has shown their commitment to compensating the government through the terms of their loan guarantee," said Eric Edwards, vice chairman of the America West unit of ALPA. "Now it is time for management to show the same commitment to the employees who have repeatedly sacrificed and invested in this airline by resuming good faith negotiations with us."

As part of the agreement with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, America West committed to keeping labor costs to those outlined in the company's seven-year business plan. "Management has an obligation to negotiate with the unions representing America West employees no matter what commitments they make to the government," Edwards said. The pilots believe that this condition imposed by the federal government could interfere with their collective bargaining rights and are exploring all legal options if those rights are restricted.
"The federal government, which is mediating our negotiations as a neutral third party, could become a major shareholder in the airline," Edwards said. "This could present a conflict of interest that would compromise our legal bargaining rights."

The pilots, who have been negotiating with America West since February 2000, lag considerably behind their counterparts at other major carriers despite having much more demanding schedules and constraints within which to fly. They are seeking to address the following issues in their negotiations:

• No pension and no retiree medical benefits;
• Scheduling enhancements that increase productivity while on duty and, at the same time, restore sensible rest requirements;
• A commitment from management to reverse the punitive attitude toward employees and comply with the collective bargaining agreement, which they have failed to do as evidenced by the more than 300 grievances filed by pilots in 2001 alone;
• Job protection measures that limit management's intention to outsource the pilots' flying careers to smaller carriers; and
•Hourly pay rates that are as much as 74 percent below major airline industry average.​

Including the 1,800 America West pilots, ALPA represents 66,000 members at 46 airlines in the United States and Canada.

# # #​

ALPA Contact: Scott Sherrin, (602) 306-4100

Thanks for that Claxon. Please archive it and post it every couple of days. USAir paid the highest rates in the industry for decades, in fact I turned down my recall at UAL in late 85 to stay here. Even under Wolf, we eventually gained (for a brief period) once again industry standard. Airplanes flying into buildings screwed us all. I have never, ever in thirty years in the commercial industry heard a pilot say AWA was their goal for employment. We all know the ugly truth.Greeter

 

[Claxon]

Thanks for that Claxon. Please archive it and post it every couple of days. USAir paid the highest rates in the industry for decades, in fact I turned down my recall at UAL in late 85 to stay here. Even under Wolf, we eventually gained (for a brief period) once again industry standard. Airplanes flying into buildings screwed us all. I have never, ever in thirty years in the commercial industry heard a pilot say AWA was their goal for employment. We all know the ugly truth.Greeter

America West pilots presently love to write their own history book, hoping we have not researched the past.

News Release​

February 22, 2002
Pilots to Host Union Conference on Job Outsourcing
PHOENIX — The four unions representing approximately 6,000 America West Airlines employees will meet Feb. 25 in Phoenix to discuss the effects increased outsourcing of flying to smaller affiliate airlines will have on their respective members’ careers.

The conference, hosted by the America West unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), will include representatives from the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Transport Workers Union and Association of Flight Attendants.

"We cannot sit idly by and watch while the growth of America West, growth made possible by the efforts and sacrifices of the employees, is outsourced to other carriers," said Captain Herb Holland, chairman of the America West ALPA unit. "We all want to see America West grow, but not at the expense of our own careers."

According to America West’s Seven Year Plan, which was submitted to the Air Transport Stabilization Board in December to support the airline’s federal loan guarantee application, outsourced flying performed on behalf of America West by other carriers will increase 100 percent from 2001 to 2008. During that same period, America West itself will increase flying by only 20 percent.

"With hundreds of our workers still on furlough, it’s disturbing to see America West management’s continued disregard for the job security concerns of the very people who have driven this airline’s success," Captain Holland said.

Including the 1,800 America West pilots, ALPA represents 64,000 pilots at 45 airlines in the United States and Canada.

# # #​

ALPA Contact: Scott Sherrin, (602) 306-4100

 

[cleardirect]

Alpa "could have implemented a national seniority list..."? Thanks for the Joke of the Day. Alpa wasn't even any semblance of a "union" for many, many years. All it existed for was to collect monies and enrichen an utterly worthless little cabal of largely or entirely non-flying politicians that sometimes put on pilot costumes for photo shoots or public appearances....when they weren't otherwise occupied giving up the airline industry to RJ's and establishing pay rates for those surrendered spots that would embarass even crack hookers....meanwhile of course; always increasing the funds received by the pathetic little pigs at the top of alpa. Alpa provided a pipeline for the truly worthless, who really didn't want to actually fly airplanes, to strive for the enriching paradise and lazy retirement that was/is Herndon...period! Placing alpa and the words union or national together in any phrase can only provide cynical laughter in response.

You haven't been around this industry very long, have you?

cleardirect: "You really don't think before you post do you?"

So what you listed was all that ALPA did?

How was it that you got such a good contract that you all crow about?
How was it that you got a pension to even be able to be taken by the court?

It according to you all ALPA did was take your money. WHY did it take you so long to get rid of them? Why was not until you did not get what you thought was a fair seniority integration that you finally got rid of the evil ALPA?

Stop your BS.