Awa, Us Air Chiefs Propose

[700UW]

AWA, US Air Chiefs Propose 'Proportional' Labor Merge
Aviation Daily
05/23/2005, page 04

Steven Lott

The chief executives of America West and US Airways promised labor last week that they will not "staple" the seniority list of one carrier to the other's, but merging union forces can still mean headaches for management.

Aviation history shows many instances of integrating labor forces from two airlines as a difficult and often destructive process. In the case of the proposed America West-US Airways merger, America West CEO Doug Parker notes that nothing in the proposed deal requires an amendment to current labor contracts and said much of the transition will focus on talks between the two units of the Air Line Pilots Association.

Parker and US Airways CEO Bruce Lakefield last week issued a "joint statement of labor principles" to address staff concerns. For staff represented by unions, "the question of what will happen to your jobs is even harder for us to answer because so much of what will happen is outside management's control."

The executives said the labor contracts have different provisions governing how seniority lists will be integrated, and depending on the specific contract, "provide for integration in accordance with a particular union's merger policy or certain 'Allegheny Mohawk' seniority integration provisions. Lakefield and Parker plan to honor those commitments, and "the ultimate outcome of seniority integration will be determined by your collective bargaining representatives as dictated by your contracts."

Management hopes and expects that the unions will "honor certain obviously fair and equitable protocols as they implement their merger policies." More specifically, management expects that no employee who had been furloughed before the merger would be permitted to bump an active employee out of a job. The executives believe that a plan to staple a seniority list of all employees of one airline to the bottom of the other's seniority list is "unacceptable and unconscionable." Management sees some type of proportional integration as "reasonable."

America West made clear that it is "fully prepared to safeguard the careers of America West pilots." The America West pilots' merger policy "provides for a process and timeframe for events to occur, but does not dictate how two ALPA pilot groups will integrate their seniority lists." Specifics on how the two merge their seniority lists are left up to negotiations between the pilot groups. If no agreement is reached, a merged list would result from mediation and arbitration.

Parker said he hopes most of the headcount cuts will come from attrition but acknowledged there would be some layoffs. -SL

 

[diogenes]

AWA, US Air Chiefs Propose 'Proportional' Labor Merge
Aviation Daily
05/23/2005, page 04

Steven Lott





Management hopes and expects that the unions will "honor certain obviously fair and equitable protocols as they implement their merger policies." More specifically, management expects that no employee who had been furloughed before the merger would be permitted to bump an active employee out of a job. The executives believe that a plan to staple a seniority list of all employees of one airline to the bottom of the other's seniority list is "unacceptable and unconscionable." Management sees some type of proportional integration as "reasonable."







Well, now we know why U was so eager to kick folks off the property without the recall rights employees had previously enjoyed.

Wonder if the IAM and CWA was in the know.

I know how I'd bet! :down:

 

[trvlr64]

Could someone educate me ( no flames please, I'd really like to know), why is the merging of 2 businesses that have unions so important? I'm in the medical profession and for my 22 years I've never been involved with a union. When my hospital started acquiring the other hospitals in my city the employees at those other hospitals didn't start worrying or complaining about senority. Everyone did their job and some moved around the hospital system if they wanted to work in another hospital closer to home.

Are unions really protecting your jobs these days? Again, educate me don't become Johnny Torch and FLAME ON!!

lol

 

[justanadd]

Seniority is everything at an airline especially if you are a crew member. As far as unions they may not be all they used to be but if your airline what concessions I wouldn't want to be without one.

 

[insp89]

Could someone educate me ( no flames please, I'd really like to know), why is the merging of 2 businesses that have unions so important? I'm in the medical profession and for my 22 years I've never been involved with a union. When my hospital started acquiring the other hospitals in my city the employees at those other hospitals didn't start worrying or complaining about senority. Everyone did their job and some moved around the hospital system if they wanted to work in another hospital closer to home.

Are unions really protecting your jobs these days? Again, educate me don't become Johnny Torch and FLAME ON!!

lol

[post="272344"][/post]​

trvl64, When your hospital "acquired " other hospitals,

Did some employees lose their jobs due to job redundancy ??

How was it determined which employee would stay or go ???

Did all the employees that were "moved" to other hospitals have a choice to either stay at their hospital or move to another one ? Or were they forced to move ?

 

[a320av8r]

Fair question:
I am a pilot with 20 1/2 years at PI/US. I am currently a bottom block- holder, captain.
With the parking of 71 aircraft I will become a first officer with another 35% paycut.
I am fairly junior at US Airways. The other pilots below me have been, or were able to be, captains here and bumped back to F/O and to reserve incurring paycuts of 50% or more.
We currently have 1879 pilots on furlough with the bottom hire date being 1988.

Now-
A junior America West captain has been employed by the company for less than 8 years with a total of under 1900 pilots.

Seniority is everything in an airline and determines everything from the equipment and status you fly (pay rate), to the days and holidays you have off.

It is particularly sticky because the AWA pilots certainly deserve the seniority they have but so does the US Airways guy who's been there for 17+ years at the bottom enduring the reserve system and bottom of the list.

I'm not backing either side, just trying to explain the situation.

In the medical field if a hospital is acquired you stay at your respective job and management group keeps on managing the hospital, everybody stays in place. In the airline industry each piece of equipment (aircraft) is distributed throughout the system because it is mobile. As a result when an aircraft is parked or acquired it affects every station on the system as to how many employees are required, by seniority.

An example is that for every aircraft in the U system approx. 10.5 pilots are affected.
If one aircraft is removed from the system, 10.5 positions are removed from the system. How do you determine who is affected? By seniority, usually by date of hire.
(I am using the pilot example only because I am familiar with staffing, not because of "importance", it's similar for the other groups too).

So you are back to the original dilemma, how do you integrate seniority "fairly and equitably"?

That is the billion dollar question. :blink:

 

[trvlr64]

trvl64,   When your hospital "acquired "  other hospitals, 

Did some employees lose their jobs due to job redundancy ??

How was it determined which employee would stay or go ???

Did all the employees that were "moved" to other hospitals have a choice to either stay at their hospital or move to another one ?   Or were they forced to move ?

[post="272354"][/post]​

Yes some jobs were lost due to redundancy in administrative areas. Medical care areas were usually not affected.

I have no idea how it was determined. Management never said, they just said BYE.

No one was forced to move. It was your decision to move to another hospital if an opening existed there and you applied for it. If more than 2 applied then they went thru an interview to see who was best qualified.


THNX a320av8r !! I didn't realize that there were that many pilots assigned to an aircraft. Do you guys get the opportunity to be qualified on all the planes that US flies or do you regulate yourselves as to how many pilots fly certain plane types?

 

[a320av8r]

You are "current" on only one aircraft type at a time due to safety concerns.
So you can only fly that type.

But can be "qualified" (trained and type rated) on more than one.
Most are, since we have all been bounced around so much, determined by seniorty.

 

[Us/boston]

Could someone educate me ( no flames please, I'd really like to know), why is the merging of 2 businesses that have unions so important? I'm in the medical profession and for my 22 years I've never been involved with a union. When my hospital started acquiring the other hospitals in my city the employees at those other hospitals didn't start worrying or complaining about senority. Everyone did their job and some moved around the hospital system if they wanted to work in another hospital closer to home.

Are unions really protecting your jobs these days? Again, educate me don't become Johnny Torch and FLAME ON!!

lol

[post="272344"][/post]​

One more thing If you loose your job at one airline and you want to say in the industry at another carrier you have to start at the bottom. Even if you have 20 years experience you get the same pay as someone off the street.

 

[REACC1]

And who's to say that at the hospital, some one just hired is going to be retained because they accepted lower pay and the 10-20 year vet is let go because now they are looked at as a burden.

 

[hp_fa]

If you are in the 51st percentile at U when the lists are merged, you should be at the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. If you were in the 51st percentile at HP when the lists are merged, you should be in the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. (Change the "51st percentile" to any number between 1 and 100 and the statements holds true.)

The DOH argument fails for one big reason. There is no reason why HP employees should lose most of their seniority and become junior (in relative terms) to U employees who were working at a compnay that was close to liquidation.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I am not looking to improve my lot in life at the expense of a U employee. However, I should not lose my relative position to a U employee.

 

[trvlr64]

One more thing If you loose your job at one airline and you want to say in the industry at another carrier you have to start at the bottom.  Even if you have 20 years experience you get the same pay as someone off the street.

[post="272365"][/post]​

The same thing happens when you work in the medical field too. I moved to San Diego and took a job there. I started at the bottom "senority" wise, so I had to work Xmas holiday. But because of my experience I actually made more $$$ than a "senior" person who had been there 10-20 years.


ok, except this part....Even if you have 20 years experience you get the same pay as someone off the street.

So does having a union stiffel(sp?) the opportunity for monetary growth in the airline business?

I didn't care that I had to work the crappy holidays. I was making more money.

The same thing happened when I went corporate. A new hire was paid $5K more than me. In this instance, he got paid more because he had a family and I am single. I had more experience than he ever had too. I far exceeded him. But for me to increase my salary in this corporation I either had to move up the ladder or move out. I moved out and moved on 3 times last year. I increased my salary by ....oh never mind.....let's just say I'm very pleased. Had I remained at my old company I would never had made an increase like I did by moving out.

So back to the union question....... ??

 

[fatherabraham]

If you are in the 51st percentile at U when the lists are merged, you should be at the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. If you were in the 51st percentile at HP when the lists are merged, you should be in the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. (Change the "51st percentile" to any number between 1 and 100 and the statements holds true.)

The DOH argument fails for one big reason. There is no reason why HP employees should lose most of their seniority and become junior (in relative terms) to U employees who were working at a compnay that was close to liquidation.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I am not looking to improve my lot in life at the expense of a U employee. However, I should not lose my relative position to a U employee.

[post="272374"][/post]​

hp_fa,

Your idea seems fair at first blush, but surley you realize that over time a few zillion ( actually each employee) will have many valid points that also seem reasonable. My $ says an arbitrator will will eventually decide.

I agree though, no one should gain at the expense of another.

FA

 

[Rico]

The recent message form the US Airways MEC Chair listed the wrong number when he quoted how many active pilots there are at US Airways...

He left off all of the pilots flying "MidAtlantic" aircraft at U mainline.

That part of mainline has not been sold yet, and even if it is, it would take sometime for it to be transferred over to Republic, during which a large portion of the operation would still be "on the property" flying on the Mainline certificate

Unlike those on furlough, and unlike those employed "off property" at a JFJ position..., those AAA pilots flying the E-170 at Mainline are dues paying, voting, assessment paying, tallyed in each AAA Council's numbers ACTIVE Mainline US Airways pilots...

They have no separate contract, their operation exists only under a letter of agreement on the Mainline CBA. There is no separate company..., It is as much a part of Mainline US Airways as is the "US Airways Shuttle" flying (or Metrojet was in the past).

 

[Dog Wonder]

Maybe some pilots only exist in their imagination.