Still Want To Vote No?

[Frank Szabo]

Since the International and its lawyers no longer answer my questions;
1. So if the LBO is not to be considered as to whether a Contract is to be rejected or not then if the initial filing is so out of line as to not meet the standards for abrogation then an "improved version" can not be submitted to justify termination correct? In other words if the company asked for too much, such as in our case being allowed to extract funds that we are entitled to from a Trust, they could not change it later, the decision would be based on what they originally filed and could be grounds for rejecting the debtors motion, correct? The ruling was an admonishment against debtors reaching for too much because they are only supposed to ask for what is necessary. How is taking funds that were specifically put outside the company, in order to protect workers, necissary for AA's business plan?

2. What was left out is that we can strike if we exhaust the sect 6 process and we are not hit with a PEB. We were already at that point, set to ask for a release on November 30th. The BK process and RLA are seperate. We would need to submit our request for release immediately and make our case to the NMB, how could the NMB comply with the intent of the RLA and deny our request after as much as 6 years of negotiations, failed TAs, BK filings, and failed Pre-1113 negotiations? More than likely after the 30 days we would be hit with a PEB, where, thanks to the companys own testimony, the union could argue that the company can afford to bring us up to industry standards because it would not cost them $1.75 billion to do so.

3. Amtrack is a complicated story, they did not push that hard for release because even though they were in negotiations they continued to get COLA raises, which were part of their old agreements, and AMTRACK got FULL RETRO.

So No, the Internationals lawyers wont lie to you, they just dont tell you everything. I am not offended by the fact that they do what they do, after all I'm not paying them, the International is. They are not paid to give us the whole story so we can make an informed decision. On that we are on our own.

Bob:

Is my memory playing tricks on me or do I recall part of the law that reads any contract imposed can't be punitive in nature?

"If you don't vote for the agreement, we'll impose a harsher contract" sounds very punitive to me - or is this not about law anymore?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob:

Is my memory playing tricks on me or do I recall part of the law that reads any contract imposed can't be punitive in nature?

"If you don't vote for the agreement, we'll impose a harsher contract" sounds very punitive to me - or is this not about law anymore?

I guess thats interpretation, but most certainly removing things from the term sheet would be. The International decided to remove things from the Term sheet comparasion because they want you to vote YES without saying vote yes, such as the 1.5% raises that they spoke about in court.
If you want to compare the two I suggest you compare the two term sheet and not the selectively edited version the TWU sent you and posted, like I said, they dont have to live under it.

Here is something the lawyers are not saying, if the company imposes changes that are different and harsher than what the court used as a basis for abrogation then we have grounds to claim that the status quo was violated and strike. Certain facts can not be denied under the RLA, the TWU is the bargaining unit and has been since 1946, if the court is claiming that a contract never existed then how do they explain the void from 1946 to present? The RLA says that if the carrier unilaterally imposes terms that we can strike, Ok the court may claim that since they allowed the terms to be imposed, the terms that were presented in BK that its not unilateral, but any changes after that would be. The terms they presented to court included the 1.5% increases and other things that the International chose, against the wishes of the committee, (in fact they left us to believe they would leave them in then took them out without informing us) chose to omit.

 

[dc10boy]

The American Airlines Tulsa Maintenance Base has the skill, the capital investment in equipment and the overall capability to produce MRO profits instead of continuing being delegated as a cost center in the bean counters eyes that must be hacked and reduced. These available resources in Tulsa are not being utilized because both the Union and Management Leadership are incapable of breaking the current destructive culture because they created it to begin with and are both actively doing everything within their power to cover up and protect the inept agenda.


Informer is right. Look around your work group. See the guy that thinks he is worth $45 an hour but everybody knows couldn't work at the local Discount Tire shop? How about the clown that can't show up on time or the one that is ok with his co-workers carrying him? The 20+ year guy who has burned through his sick time screwing off and now wants some of my vacation? This is the union I heard about growing up and I see it for myself now. We are all adults and we tell our children to try hard and do well in school and life and then we come to work and see grown men and women acting like 3 year olds. And we want to blame Horton and Little?
I have asked the question before and I will do it again. How does a union go into negotiations with a straight face with this kind of dysfunctional workgroup. This is a disgrace to the educated hardworking people that appreciate their jobs and it brings down the value of all of us. Instead of paycuts, how about leech cuts? These losers are as responsible for our demise as Horton and Little.
I want another option to vote for. I want a "clean out the dead wood first and then see where we stand" option. But neither the union nor company wants this and we should all be as pissed as Dennis Barnett.
No matter how this vote turns out, the ones that are left need to get rid of this union and whoever replaces them should have as their first priority the mindset that we are an asset to the company. Not so easily tossed aside. We have been bankrupt from within for years.

AA89 I agree with you in a lot of ways, but......Attitude reflects leadership,I have long said and have told management that a fair contract offer as well as competent executive leadership would probably cure most of this departments problems.Guys don't have professional pride anymore as a result of years of being treated like a cost not an asset.like a brick in some executives backpack.I have heard guys say to me "why do you even care" and "nothing we do even matters we're just a cost they want to get rid of".Both understandable statements given the situation.Mark my words, If management is replaced by Parker and USAIRs team or somebody else and we are engaged and treated fairly, they will rediscover the best M&E organization in the business

 

[dc10boy]

You have posted the $3 billion number more than once and I'm curious how you arrived at that number.

FWAAA he arrived at this number due to courtroom testimony that the companys plan would put 360 Mil. into the profit sharing plan to be distributed to the unions.Using the companys own calculations that adds up to around 3 bil. This is the local 562 site
http://www.twu562.org/ . relevant info is in the 4/25 presidents update.
I believe we all owe Mr. Owens a debt of gratitude here.He is working hard to supply good info for our benefit.I also believe its up to us to start hunting this info down ourselves and stand with him in exposing this charade between the international and AA
I cannot wait until more courtroom transcripts and info come to light!We as union members should not be in an information vacuum regarding the events shaping our future.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Bob, I would like to know the positives you have contributed to the blended current 2003 agreement, the 2010 failed TA, and the companies March 22, 2012 term sheet that makes up the current companies LBO. I would like to know the positives you contributed to the combined LBO and why you recommend rejection which eliminates the status quo of our agreement with American Airlines? What do you intend to improve if rejected? How long will it take to reach a new contract if rejected and what is your bargaining chip to go forward to obtain a new contract. Hopefully, it will not be on the backs of the many members who will lose there jobs and the savings generated to the company due to the LBO rejection. That would be a dispicable! If the LBO is rejected we will fall under the imposed terms of the comany and still yet be governed by the Railway Labor act which states there is a Duty to re-negotiate to create a "New Status Quo." What is your stratagy to force the company to immediately engage in negotiation with us to establish this "NEW Status Quo?" What if they simply meet with you face to face and say "screw you", see you in 2018. The company would not have violated the requirement under the RLA of Duty to meet, nor the requirement to establish a New Satus Quo so what would be your plan from there? What can you offer us as encouragement to follow your NO VOTE quest? Your pal, Informer and I had this discussion the other day over the duty to negotiate. There is no timeline to satisfy the establishment of a new status quo and you won't even be able to get a release from the NMB if you can't make any headway to establish a new status quo so your pushing something you have little to no control over Bob.

It is quite obvious that he, and others, cannot count on your support going forward. You will simply go to work as usual with your head hung low saying "at least I have a job".

Does that cover it?

 

[cf6mech]

AA89 I agree with you in a lot of ways, but......Attitude reflects leadership,I have long said and have told management that a fair contract offer as well as competent executive leadership would probably cure most of this departments problems.Guys don't have professional pride anymore as a result of years of being treated like a cost not an asset.like a brick in some executives backpack.I have heard guys say to me "why do you even care" and "nothing we do even matters we're just a cost they want to get rid of".Both understandable statements given the situation.Mark my words, If management is replaced by Parker and USAIRs team or somebody else and we are engaged and treated fairly, they will rediscover the best M&E organization in the business

Totally agree with this,. I have seen so many good men with excellant work ethics turn into slugs because of the constant beat down by management and how we are treated and the lack of leadership,.....when I first hired on some 23 years ago there was peer pressure abound for the slugs and would be slugs. That has all disappeared,....I would guess starting with Crandalls departure forward to the point were there is actually peer pressure to NOT put in an honest days work for an honest days wage.....Arpey had the chance to re invigorate the masses after we got screwed by Carty,....It was very important for Arpey to take the reins and work on the labor management strife,.....not only did he not improve upon it,.....he picked up were Carty left off and further erroded the relationship,.....lack of leadership from the top has a way of filtering down,...all the way to the floor to the lowly production supervisor,,.....there is absolutely no accountability in this orginization......NONE !......Proof is in managements call to labor as the problem to create profits,....when its the mistakes they have made.....WE ARE NOT MAKING THE BUSINESS DECISIONS , they are,.....they are accountable......not us.......they Effed up and blaming us !.......Its criminal that they are not accountable for there lack of fore thought and leadership going from the #1 airline in America to a distant third........... SLUGS! you will always have slugs, specially in any Union protected shop. The problem we have is this management team and their management style, lack of being accountable for anything, the learning of what they actually feel about us (bricks) (pay) (pensions froze) is creating a loss of pride in the product and its creating more an more slugs everyday from the constant beat downs,.....making more and more "got mines's"..... and the attitude of ..eff this company.

 

[High Speed Steel]

If anyone doubts that what we are voting on is the result of "pre 1113 © negotiations' look at LOM 17, what I call the Bootlicking Letter, where we agree to committ to make AA "best in Class" in exchange for them making us the lowest paid in the industry.

Like I said the company has no reason to negotiate, thats why the Pilots and Flight attendants are going in, without the pilots there is no airline anyway, so we should go in as well.

Bingo......Listen to yourself, my point is taken that negotiations could go on indefinetly with no timeline to establish a new status quo.

 

[FWAAA]

FWAAA he arrived at this number due to courtroom testimony that the companys plan would put 360 Mil. into the profit sharing plan to be distributed to the unions.Using the companys own calculations that adds up to around 3 bil. This is the local 562 site
http://www.twu562.org/ . relevant info is in the 4/25 presidents update.

Uhh, I'm well aware of the 562 website and of Owens' presidents updates posted there. I've read Owens' material, and I've pointed out his math errors and difficulties with numbers numerous times.

My question is how a 15% first dollar profit sharing percentage that might produce a profit-sharing total of $360 million equates to a $3 billion profit?

See the source of my question? $360 million is 15% of $2.4 billion, not $3 billion. At least in my math books it is. I was hoping that Bob Owens could explain his math.

 

[FWAAA]

duplicate

 

[Frank Szabo]

Bingo......Listen to yourself, my point is taken that negotiations could go on indefinetly with no timeline to establish a new status quo.

... and that's reason to remove ourselves from the equation? I think not.

You seem to be working hard to sell this contract/fishwrapper - what were you promised in exchange for your hard work - an international position? Why are you and this so-called "union" so eager to sell out?

Carry on "brother", lol, lol, lol, carry on.

 

[TWU informer]

Bingo......Listen to yourself, my point is taken that negotiations could go on indefinetly with no timeline to establish a new status quo.

Well then listen to yourself, negotiations going on indefinetly is better than volunteering 6 years of the LBO. there is a chance that circumstances change over 6 years and we can improve. Vote Yes and regardless of any circumstance changes you are stuck in a rut for sure.

No matter which way the Judge rules, every employee is going to get their prefuding reserves refunded to them.
The Union should be telling every member to place this refund into a Strike Fund account for themselves and their family, along with suggesting a NO VOTE instead of FEAR. That is unless you agree that the true function of the Union is to take away from Union Members Pay and Benefits to subsidize jobs for others. But last I checked the hire and fire numbers should be a company function not a Union function. Maybe the TWU should make a attempt at doing the Union Function for a change, and leave the Company Function to them.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

But last I checked the hire and fire numbers should be a company function not a Union function. Maybe the TWU should make a attempt at doing the Union Function for a change, and leave the Company Function to them.

That's one of my major objections to this entire mess - we, the membership, are paying union dues for the twu to perform what should be company functions.

Why?

 

[TWU informer]

Did anyone attend the meeting this morning? I have heard no mention of it as of yet.

 

[AA89]

Totally agree with this,. I have seen so many good men with excellant work ethics turn into slugs because of the constant beat down by management and how we are treated and the lack of leadership,.....when I first hired on some 23 years ago there was peer pressure abound for the slugs and would be slugs. That has all disappeared,....I would guess starting with Crandalls departure forward to the point were there is actually peer pressure to NOT put in an honest days work for an honest days wage.....Arpey had the chance to re invigorate the masses after we got screwed by Carty,....It was very important for Arpey to take the reins and work on the labor management strife,.....not only did he not improve upon it,.....he picked up were Carty left off and further erroded the relationship,.....lack of leadership from the top has a way of filtering down,...all the way to the floor to the lowly production supervisor,,.....there is absolutely no accountability in this orginization......NONE !......Proof is in managements call to labor as the problem to create profits,....when its the mistakes they have made.....WE ARE NOT MAKING THE BUSINESS DECISIONS , they are,.....they are accountable......not us.......they Effed up and blaming us !.......Its criminal that they are not accountable for there lack of fore thought and leadership going from the #1 airline in America to a distant third........... SLUGS! you will always have slugs, specially in any Union protected shop. The problem we have is this management team and their management style, lack of being accountable for anything, the learning of what they actually feel about us (bricks) (pay) (pensions froze) is creating a loss of pride in the product and its creating more an more slugs everyday from the constant beat downs,.....making more and more "got mines's"..... and the attitude of ..eff this company.

I agree with everything you said except........I don't think someone makes someone else into anything that they aren't capable of becoming. Upper management is incompetent so I will become a slug? My point was exactly that the company and union have allowed this and I despise it. You will never hear me defend it for any reason.

 

[Buck]

I agree with everything you said except........I don't think someone makes someone else into anything that they aren't capable of becoming. Upper management is incompetent so I will become a slug? My point was exactly that the company and union have allowed this and I despise it. You will never hear me defend it for any reason.

I have to disagree. As a Crew Chief just the aspect of 7 day coverage on a TUL dock have shown that people can become slugs. Now they may have already had it inside them, but a major change to their lifestyle can bring that slug to the surface. Just imagine what this bankruptcy is going to do to them.