Still Want To Vote No?

[odie01]

After alot of thought and consideration I have upgraded my No, to a Fcking Dennis NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AA89]

I have to disagree. As a Crew Chief just the aspect of 7 day coverage on a TUL dock have shown that people can become slugs. Now they may have already had it inside them, but a major change to their lifestyle can bring that slug to the surface. Just imagine what this bankruptcy is going to do to them.

Not arguing that point. It will be ugly.

 

[TWU informer]

Not arguing that point. It will be ugly.

Bean Counter numbers do not include "ugly" and in fact fails to calculate all human factors invovled in the Airline.

Maybe the Bean Counter needs to visit some mandatory "Human Factors" training.

AA makes all AMT's go to the class, but I bet the Bean Counter doesn't even know what Human Factors means.
It is such a safety related matter, yet when it comes to finance, the whole factor goes out the window.

 

[Buck]

They should also take Flagship Courses on Leadership

 

[1AA]

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR ALL VOTERS

Since this vote will be similar to the sham vote of 2003 I suggest that all you NO voters vote on the last day in the closing hours to avoid anyone from going in and changing your vote without knowing. When we get our PIN numbers I doubt very much we can change it to prevent fraud or hacking of the PIN list that someone has. Vote the last day in the closing hours.
Lets defeat this LBO and let Jim Little "FIGHT LIKE HELL" like a real union should.

 

[AA89]

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR ALL VOTERS

Since this vote will be similar to the sham vote of 2003 I suggest that all you NO voters vote on the last day in the closing hours to avoid anyone from going in and changing your vote without knowing. When we get our PIN numbers I doubt very much we can change it to prevent fraud or hacking of the PIN list that someone has. Vote the last day in the closing hours.
Lets defeat this LBO and let Jim Little "FIGHT LIKE HELL" like a real union should.

Great idea unless there is "a system overload" that causes the last minute NO votes to go uncounted..................

 

[eolesen]

Great idea unless there is "a system overload" that causes the last minute NO votes to go uncounted..................

Exactly... and when the vote goes the other way, 1AA will probably be one of the people complaining that the system was incapable of handling the demand, even though there's more than enough advance notice for people to vote at their leisure.

Seems like it would just make more sense to compare PIN numbers with a couple people who have similar employee numbers, and see how random they are compared to the debacle of 2003.

 

[Buck]

Exactly... and when the vote goes the other way, 1AA will probably be one of the people complaining that the system was incapable of handling the demand, even though there's more than enough advance notice for people to vote at their leisure.

Seems like it would just make more sense to compare PIN numbers with a couple people who have similar employee numbers, and see how random they are compared to the debacle of 2003.

Or they could just make all no votes yes votes. (A computer program is already being tested? )

 

[Frank Szabo]

Or they could just make all no votes yes votes. (A computer program is already being tested? )

Why go to that much trouble? Bribes work fine - just ask anyone in elected office.

 

[dc10boy]

Uhh, I'm well aware of the 562 website and of Owens' presidents updates posted there. I've read Owens' material, and I've pointed out his math errors and difficulties with numbers numerous times.

My question is how a 15% first dollar profit sharing percentage that might produce a profit-sharing total of $360 million equates to a $3 billion profit?

See the source of my question? $360 million is 15% of $2.4 billion, not $3 billion. At least in my math books it is. I was hoping that Bob Owens could explain his math.

Ok for the sake of argument, even if his math was wrong and your was right 2.4 Bil? still pretty extreme considering a 1.25 bil demand from labor.I still say No, Fight this and take it to the judge.

 

[Bob Owens]

Uhh, I'm well aware of the 562 website and of Owens' presidents updates posted there. I've read Owens' material, and I've pointed out his math errors and difficulties with numbers numerous times.

My question is how a 15% first dollar profit sharing percentage that might produce a profit-sharing total of $360 million equates to a $3 billion profit?

See the source of my question? $360 million is 15% of $2.4 billion, not $3 billion. At least in my math books it is. I was hoping that Bob Owens could explain his math.

Unions only make up around 80% of the workforce, if $360 million is the share going to Union workers then the total amount would be around 20% higher, So the total would be around $3 billion

 

[Bob Owens]

Bingo......Listen to yourself, my point is taken that negotiations could go on indefinetly with no timeline to establish a new status quo.

How many airlines left bk without new agreements?

The Pilots and FAs are not at the bottom of the industry yet they are taking it to the Judge. We are in a better position, in that we are at the bottom. The pilots said they were willing to address the issues where they were not aligned with the rest of the industry but the company would not bargain, the FAs put forth the same arguement, the TWU simply said we will be voting on either a TA or company offer by the 14th.

A Yes vote keeps us at the very bottom for the next six years, it does not "save" any jobs, it destroys all of them.
System and Station protection - gone and agreed to, no way of getting it back till 2018, UAL has system protection even though they went through BK
How does that "save jobs"? If AA was truly committed to saving those 1900 jobs then why didnt they simply roll the date back to allow the layoffs they plan on doing like they did on 2003? Now every worker is exposed.
ASM cap gone and agreed to.
This allows AA unlimited growth of a paralell operation.
How does that "save jobs'?
Outsoucing up to 55%, thats more than UAL.
How does that "save jobs".
More than doubling the station staffing requirements,
How does that "save jobs"?

The fact is that there is no job saving language in the agreement. All the changes remove staffing requirements and there is no cap on how much they can reduce our headcount. Sure they can only outsource 55% if RR backs out of Taesl but AA could eventually turn ALL domestic operations if it chose to into Eagle. if they strike a deal with the APA to fly all the Airbusses under Eagles operating certificate we would likely only be doing OH of 737s by the end of this contract, The 777 will already gone and we have no language for the 787 either. If they can contract out 55% of maintenance then they could contract out roughly 80% of OH. By voting yes we are agreeing to gut our contract of all job protection and the lowest wages and worst benefits in the industry. Some things we cant control, some we can, we can say NO. Like we should have in 1995 and 2003.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob, even though I complained about your last YouTube Video, and everyone else claimed it had no influence on the outcome of the T/A that was rejected.

I think we need another one today and hurry!!!

 

[Hopeful]

How many airlines left bk without new agreements?

The Pilots and FAs are not at the bottom of the industry yet they are taking it to the Judge. We are in a better position, in that we are at the bottom. The pilots said they were willing to address the issues where they were not aligned with the rest of the industry but the company would not bargain, the FAs put forth the same arguement, the TWU simply said we will be voting on either a TA or company offer by the 14th.

A Yes vote keeps us at the very bottom for the next six years, it does not "save" any jobs, it destroys all of them.
System and Station protection - gone and agreed to, no way of getting it back till 2018, UAL has system protection even though they went through BK
How does that "save jobs"? If AA was truly committed to saving those 1900 jobs then why didnt they simply roll the date back to allow the layoffs they plan on doing like they did on 2003? Now every worker is exposed.
ASM cap gone and agreed to.
This allows AA unlimited growth of a paralell operation.
How does that "save jobs'?
Outsoucing up to 55%, thats more than UAL.
How does that "save jobs".
More than doubling the station staffing requirements,
How does that "save jobs"?

The fact is that there is no job saving language in the agreement. All the changes remove staffing requirements and there is no cap on how much they can reduce our headcount. Sure they can only outsource 55% if RR backs out of Taesl but AA could eventually turn ALL domestic operations if it chose to into Eagle. if they strike a deal with the APA to fly all the Airbusses under Eagles operating certificate we would likely only be doing OH of 737s by the end of this contract, The 777 will already gone and we have no language for the 787 either. by voting yes we are agreeing to gut our contract of all job protection and the lowest wages and worst benefits in the industry

Question, Bob...

If the terms are imposed via abrogation and we have essentially no contract. Then would there NOT be any job protection anyway?
They could shed thousands of MORE jobs while negotiations are ongoing.

That's part of the fear from many a mechanic I know.

 

[Bob Owens]

Question, Bob...

If the terms are imposed via abrogation and we have essentially no contract. Then would there NOT be any job protection anyway?
They could shed thousands of MORE jobs while negotiations are ongoing.

That's part of the fear from many a mechanic I know.

The work has to be done. Why do you think they backed off on the number? Because they knew they could not dump 4500 workers and still run their operation. They had no intentions on getting rid of 4500 mechanics right away anyway. But what they have in there is even better for them, they got the ability to pretty much get rid of all of us. This is not 2005. There is not excess capacity anymore, not in seats, not in workers who posess the skills or willingness to work in this industry, not in places to send the work, It would take time to find places to do all that work, and they would pay a premium,, thats to our advantage, by giving them six years to do it we are signing our own death warrants.

What the company would do while negotiations are ongoing is anyones guess, but look at the past. I've asked the lawyers, after they gave all their doom and gloom,several questions and was told each time "Good question, I dont know, I'll get back to you". Well they havent. Did NWA go wild on their FAs? Did they ever impose new terms at all? Was the deal they eventually settled on better or worse than what was imposed and where were they in the industry and where did they end up? No answer, but according to Sharon Levines article the NWA AFA did reach a deal where the FAs got some form of equity in exchange for their concessions, they fell short around $7 million IIRC. There is ZERO equity in the companys LBO. We are dead last, by a wide margin. While USAIR, which is in mediation so its not really a valid comparasion, only has a slightly larger hourly wage they have much better benefits and working conditions. They get much more than twice what we get as far as Compensation for working Holidays, more vacation and more sick time.

Some are running around saying "they can fire anyone they want, this started with the Internationals lawyer, well they can do that now, then say 'arbitrate it'. Will they? Perhaps, but I'm probably up there on their list and I'm not that concerned, most states have laws and we do still have a Union, maybe we will have to act like it like we did during Hard Copy and not wait for the International to make a move.