Turnover Rate?

[Harry Callahan]

Another rectum heard from.

+1 couldn't have said it better.

 

[SparrowHawk]

How in the world would you come to that conclusion? His reasoning is sound. Not all jobs can or should be defined by a living wage requirement, whatever that is on any given day or by some bureaucratic determinate. The free market is quite capable of determining the proper wage level of a particular function to be performed.

When I was 13 I had a "job" delivering Pennysavers to everyone's door in my neighborhood. IIRC they paid me $0.015 per delivery. Should they have been forced to pay me a "living wage" to get advertisements out once a week? When I was 15 I got a job as a busboy and ended up working 35-60 hours/week because I liked doing my job and the $3.50/hr or so that came along with it, plus tips. Should my employer have been forced to pay me a "living wage" even though my room and board was covered by my parents?

The only thing a living wage requirement would do is to put more people out of work (liberals like that because that means more entitlement-dependent people who will vote for them). Service sector and non-professional jobs would go away and businesses would close if this kind of lunacy takes hold. Are you willing to pay $75 or $100 to have a medium-sized pepperoni Pizza delivered to your door? Are you willing to pay $150 to have your lawn mowed, or your car washed, or to see a movie at the theater? If not and these businesses had the government telling them how much they had to pay to give people a "living wage", then those businesses would cease to exist. On the other hand with rampant inflation of having a delivered pizza go from $15 to $75 then the "living wage" threshold would also go up from $20-30K/year or whatever to $75k per year. That in turn would cause the cost of a delivered pizza to go up to $300-400 which would then cause another adjustment to the "living wage" rate and the whole thing would start all over again.

This kind of government interference can never work which is why the best solution at all times is to let free market forces determine prices for all such goods without wage and price controls that undermine their effectiveness. Let a pizza be delivered for the best price the marker will bear and let the pizza delivery driver, the movie theater attendant, the airline ramper or CSR along with everyone else be paid whatever the market will bear. This keeps inflation in check and maximizes the employment level as businesses will gladly employee people who provide a financial incentive to the business owners by working for a wage that is covered by the amount of revenue they can generate and still leave a healthy profit as their return on investment.

While I tend to agree with your points I think you're ignoring the condescending arrogance of the poster (UPNAWAY) who has caused this firestorm. It matters little what a person does to feed himself or family. What matters is the Honor & Integrity of the person performing the work. Take DUI Doug Partyer, er Parker for example. What does his public conduct say about his Honor & Integrity?

Integrity is the way in which you conduct yourself when no one is looking. My personal filter for Honor & Integrity is would I want to stand shoulder to shoulder and back to back with a person if we were attacked by a gang of thugs. There are a great many US Airways employees I've met over the years who would fill the bill nicely. However, Doug Parker, Scott Kirby and UPNAWAY are not among them.

 

[UPNAWAY]

Airline employees may be the most illiterate of economics of any workers in America which is saying a lot since most of the country is also ignorant of economics. If you hate your employer so much leave!
It really is that simple, otherwise your staying implies they are providing a service to you at a good fair price!

 

[SparrowHawk]

Airline employees may be the most illiterate of economics of any workers in America which is saying a lot since most of the country is also ignorant of economics. If you hate your employer so much leave!
It really is that simple, otherwise your staying implies they are providing a service to you at a good fair price!

As a supporter of Ron Paul I'm very aware of economics and I am not an airline employee. What I resent is your condescending arrogance towards people who perform an honest days work for an honest days wages.

Like I said earlier, let's see how smug and arrogant you are when you hit 50 and are tossed out on your assets simply because the company can hire someone for half what they pay you. I know I'm hired to be fired that's why I have ZERO loyalty yet I'm betting you'd be the first one who'd give me a raft of shite if I resigned in the middle of your pet project. I can hear it now, "Where's your Loyalty to the Company". Want to know my answer? "The same place your head is! Up your arse. See ya, sure hate ta be ya!"

I have a buddy who is a long haul trucker. Got to Denver and a guy called him with a Job offer which as luck would have it had their HQ in DEN. He went over accepted the job, drove the old employer's rig to a truck stop, called his old boss and quit and FedEx'ed him the keys and started his new job. Filed suit against his old employer for his owed wages and won. Settlement included a letter of recommendation. With your attitude you reap what you sow. Get the picture genius? Ow how I would love for a Senior Pilot at US to fly to AMS and split on the company and publicizes it.

The Company is free to treat its workers as they see fit and Vice Versa.

 

[LD3]

Airline employees may be the most illiterate of economics of any workers in America

Wow, are you including yourself ?

 

[UPNAWAY]

How is wanting people to be responsible for their own lot in life arrogant? The whiners are the people here that complain about literally everything and say intelligent things like “Shut this place down”. If I lost my job tomorrow I would move on quickly and quietly! BTW I am over 50!

 

[bagchucker]

Hey UPNAWAY... you can think and feel how you want on this board and hide as an anonymous writer, I bet you'd change your tune if you had to address your sentiments in person to the gate agents and rampers you belittle. Remember, they are the ones who issue your boarding passes and load your bags when you fly. If we "knew" you, perhaps you would always get assigned that awful seat next to the lav that doesn't recline or find that your bags were always sent to another destination than your intended one. Tread lightly on your "co-workers". If your signature of HP/US Proud is true, then perhaps you might humble yourself to include the other 31,999 employees at this company! Remember, "It is not WHAT you say, it is HOW you say it." If you truly despise the "menial" workers here, then perhaps YOU should move on to a form of self-employment where you can call all the shots and be as condescending as you wish without reprisal, just bear in mind that not too many people would patronize you with your attitude. Signed, an "illiterate" baggage handler.

 

[SparrowHawk]

How is wanting people to be responsible for their own lot in life arrogant? The whiners are the people here that complain about literally everything and say intelligent things like “Shut this place down”. If I lost my job tomorrow I would move on quickly and quietly! BTW I am over 50!

Ever hear the expression "It's not what you say! It's how you say it".

Just curious when the last time was you looked for a job? You and I share a few things.

Both over 50
Both have worked in their respective industry's for quite some time
Both are in industry's that are consolidating leaving less opportunity

So here you are, over 50 and on the street for likely the first time in 20 years. Confident, even cocky, because after-all you know your shite and who wouldn't want your considerable skills? Then a month goes by, then 6 months, some of those months not even a nibble. You look at moving, but no one pays relocation these days. Now it's a year and the severance is about to run out so you apply for unemployment. First time in your life, then you find out how little it is and you realize that in order to feed your family you'll need food stamps. So off you go to Maricopa County Social Services and once again for the first time in your life you humble yourself and accept a "Handout" as you've no options left.

On the way home, your cell rings and it's a recruiter with an opening that you know is a slam dunk for you. Fast forward a few days to date of interview and there you are in your very best clothes, shoes shined, every hair in place and off you go. The receptionist is nice to you and so is the HR lady and sure enough you get passed on to the actual hiring Manager. You've got that "I'm Kicking Arse today" spring back in your step as you are led to the interview room. Shortly the Hiring Manager (Your new boss you think) comes in and then it hits you like a 2 x 4 upside your head. The hiring manager doesn't look as old as your oldest daughter and the reason is because she isn't and you still don't have a job. Oh sure, she's polished, polite and professional but she ain't hiring her Dad, not even a nice down to earth one like you.

As for those who advocate "Shutting the place down". A huge part of their reason is they just don't feel valued or appreciated at any level. Basic Management 101 along with some pretty impressive research has proven that work place morale/culture is more important then raw dollars. So when you have a Company like US that falls short on both culture and dollars you get the comments that clearly upset you. I worked for a company like US, crappy attitude towards employees and worse pay. What did they offer me? The opportunity to gain experience. This company knew and hoped for turnover every 2 to 3 years. So that's what I did, I took what they offered and in 3 and a half years I was gone. There is nothing wrong with a company like I described, they have their place in the world.

I'll give Parker credit for saying that being a ramp agent of F/A at US isn't a career. When the CEO tells you this believe it. With you it's like you get some perverse pleasure out of degrading hourly workers.

 

[Harry Callahan]

UPNAWAY is an ass, don't waist your time with him. As sparrowhawk said one of these days he's going to find out & believe it or not I do not wish anything bad on him or anyone else. And heck to me it's not about money any more just treat me with respect & give me good working conditions.(These are lacking.)

 

[UPNAWAY]

How is stating some jobs are not careers arrogant or belittling?
The world needs ditch diggers too. And if that is what you aspire to that is fine. Just don't complain about how the company that pays you is cruel and heartless (No #### as they should be, it is business) and how you hate ditch digger pay. If that is the case go to school or advance up the ditch digger management chain, but don't expect more for only doing exactly the same thing since high school that any recent HS grad. can come in and do almost as well!
The sooner everyone realizes they and only they are responsible for their lot in life the sooner the country starts heading in the right direction. You are what you aspire to be, you are paid what you are worth, it really is that simple. Not trying to be mean at all, just real.

 

[UPNAWAY]

And heck to me it's not about money any more just treat me with respect & give me good working conditions.

That is not the purpose of a business! And if that is what you want go work for Apple or some other type company. Or better yet get together with like minded individuals and start an airline that really "Cares". What does that mean anyway? My guess is they could "respect you more and improve working conditions" and it would never be enough.

 

[AstroLounge]

Hey UPNAWAY... you can think and feel how you want on this board and hide as an anonymous writer, I bet you'd change your tune if you had to address your sentiments in person to the gate agents and rampers you belittle. Remember, they are the ones who issue your boarding passes and load your bags when you fly. If we "knew" you, perhaps you would always get assigned that awful seat next to the lav that doesn't recline or find that your bags were always sent to another destination than your intended one. Tread lightly on your "co-workers". If your signature of HP/US Proud is true, then perhaps you might humble yourself to include the other 31,999 employees at this company! Remember, "It is not WHAT you say, it is HOW you say it." If you truly despise the "menial" workers here, then perhaps YOU should move on to a form of self-employment where you can call all the shots and be as condescending as you wish without reprisal, just bear in mind that not too many people would patronize you with your attitude. Signed, an "illiterate" baggage handler.

Agree COMPLETELY! I have ALWAYS believed that UPNAWAY is probably ONE of The COLOSSAL F Ups that hide under the guise of Management. Or simply put......."As useful as Tits on a Nun!". There isn't much difference in what comes out of THEIR Mouth than diahherra in a toilet. Nuff said...........hopefully they'll choke on a fruitcake.

 

[CallawayGolf]

While I tend to agree with your points I think you're ignoring the condescending arrogance of the poster (UPNAWAY) who has caused this firestorm. It matters little what a person does to feed himself or family. What matters is the Honor & Integrity of the person performing the work. Take DUI Doug Partyer, er Parker for example. What does his public conduct say about his Honor & Integrity?

Integrity is the way in which you conduct yourself when no one is looking. My personal filter for Honor & Integrity is would I want to stand shoulder to shoulder and back to back with a person if we were attacked by a gang of thugs. There are a great many US Airways employees I've met over the years who would fill the bill nicely. However, Doug Parker, Scott Kirby and UPNAWAY are not among them.

Kirby & Parker have little to do with a conversation about the cause and effect relationship between wages and employee turnover. If Management was concerned about reducing employee turnover in certain entry-level positions then they would institute proven strategies that result in an employee retention rate that makes good business and financial sense. So long as there are available workers who can be hired and trained to meet the airline's demand, then there is little economic reason to tinker with the free-market forces of supply and demand.

The tension between labor and Management on wage rates comes when one side or the other tries to subvert the free-market forces and to get more than what was previously agreed upon. My guess is that an off-the-street applicant is told what the job entails and what the wage scale is before they accept the position. Then after accepting the position he/she decides that their work is worth more than what they previously agreed to. In this they ignore the fact that there is someone just like them standing on the outside of the employment relationship willing to make the same agreement. This only confirms the free-market forces that are establishing the wage rates offered. Management knows, by way of continuing to receive new employment applications, that nothing has changed in the free-market to cause wage rates to rise. So they remain intransigent to requests from current employees to raise wages above what was already agreed to because the economic conditions simply do not support such a wage hike. The tension and dissatisfaction comes from the employees' desire to alter what was already agreed to, not Management. So the high turnover rates based on wage rate disagreements are the result of employees changing their minds, not Management using some kind of bait and switch technique.

If the free-market forces reduce the available labor supply or if the cost of employee turnover rises above the level of the cost of retention, then Management will self-correct the problem in response. This is simply the reality of life in a free-market economy and there is no better way of ensuring employees are paid what a position is worth. An oversupply of qualified labor puts a downward pressure on wages; conversely an under-supply of qualified workers puts and upward pressure on wages. Management at US or anywhere else didn't invent these economic realities, they just exist as a natural law of economics. It's really no different than conceding that mankind didn't invent the laws of gravity, thermodynamics, mathematics. As human observers of the universe we were created to live in, we simply observe and acknowledge that there are invisible forces at work all around us that we cannot control or manipulate without consequences. We can respect the laws of gravity and design machines that can operate within the constraints the law of gravity places on us, or we can ignore the law of gravity and pay the consequences of doing so. Likewise we can either respect the economic laws of supply and demand by allowing the invisible force to determine the proper value of everything in an economy, or we can ignore the forces of supply and demand and pay for our failure to do so, usually through bankruptcy if the we are talking about a company/corporation or loss of a job if we are an employee.

US Airways is perfectly justified in following and yielding to the invisible forces of supply and demand. Employee groups who do not wish to respect the laws of supply and demand are simply incorrect when they ask/demand premiums on wages that cannot be supported economically. We shouldn't blame Management for this situation anymore than we should blame an aerospace engineer for designing an aircraft that properly performs given the constrains of the law of gravity. Conversely, I think it would be foolish to bestow the same level of honor on the guys who strap feathers to their arms and take a big but very short leap off a high perch. People who disrespect these invisible laws such as gravity or economics should not be treated as if their viewpoints are correct.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Agree COMPLETELY! I have ALWAYS believed that UPNAWAY is probably ONE of The COLOSSAL F Ups that hide under the guise of Management. Or simply put......."As useful as Tits on a Nun!". There isn't much difference in what comes out of THEIR Mouth than diahherra in a toilet. Nuff said...........hopefully they'll choke on a fruitcake.

To wish that someone would choke on a fruitcake (Or any other foodstuffs) puts you in the same category as UPNAWAY. I respect his right to a differing opinion, I'm trying to get him to look at the bigger picture as to why people feel as they do toward their work environment and the company that provides it.

My point isn't one of fairness or kindness. It's business pure and simple. Treating your people well and making them feel valued and part of a team might be nice, but truthfully for me it's just good business. If US Airways had the Culture and can do spirit of a Southwest and not one dime more in compensations you'd see fewer complaints from Employee & Customer alike. Which is nice but not necessary for a business to make a profit. However when you take an energized, involved and motivated work force it will positively impact the bottom line performance.

For me treating employees well is nothing more then good sound business practice.

 

[UPNAWAY]

I agree completely and they obviously do treat us well enough for those of us still here.