U.S Pilot Labor Thread, 8/10 - 8/17

[GorgeousGeorge]

Are you saying that the company does not have any integrity?

He is implying that financial outcomes and the bottom line is the only motivation and not just US Airways, it's how corporate America works.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Still begging for money? I thought that USAPA was going to do it cheaper and more efficient than the former CBA. Yet USAPA still charges the same 1.95%. What seems to be the problem? Going broke quicker than you all planned?

Well maybe if they stopped wasting money on stupid expenses like malicious law suits and foolish USA Today ads. Perhaps they just received the legal bill from Seham.

Running an association is a whole lot harder than bitching about one.

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I hear the union WILL be passing a list to the company REAL SOON, the list of NON-PAYERS.

The union donation request was for something ENTIRELY different. It is a request to help a needy former member. GET A LIFE! What a bunch of clowns!

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[Strider]

The union donation request was for something ENTIRELY different. It is a request to help a needy former member. GET A LIFE! What a bunch of clowns!


Well then Oldie, why dosen't the post just say that? Sounds like to me they are just looking for money for USAPA not to help a "former member".

 

[ableoneable]

BS. Some of the Founding Fathers were concerned with excessive federalist control over the notions of States' Rights. I don't seem to recall any "We the People, in order to thwart the horrible tyranny of the majority...." anywhere in the preamble. I'm under the silly opinion that the concern du jour was over the tyranny of an individual english monarch...almost like an arbitrator on steroids I suppose 😉 Perhaps you can educate us all further on those ideas though? Seriously, as I'm certainly no constitutional scholar. I'll freely grant that James Madison expressed concerns over the idea of a tyrannical majority.That hardly suggests that his concerns were universal. One can note that the multiple branches of governmental power were established to provide checks and balances, but nothing prevented any "tyranny of the majority" from taking place.

It's funny that you mention the slavery idea, since it was truly supported by only a minority, but a very vocal one....kinda' like "Relative Seniority" around here.

As usual you have little idea about the topic at hand yet you carry on as though you are an expert.

Try reading the Federalist Papers. Start with #10 by James Madison. The founding fathers were very worried about the possibility of a tyrnny of the majority, hence our Democratic Republic form of government.

The only difference is that in their day the government was even less directly controlled by the voters than it is now.

The only office holders chosen directly by the people were in the House of Representitives. They were very worried about ill informed emotional voters, i.e. people like EastUS.

 

[LSS]

One of our own, has had his 24-years of service to US Airways terminated, pending appeal to an arbitrator. USAPA is confident of this pilot's vindication by the neutral arbitrator, but that will not happen until at least late November; more likely the end of 2008.

Regardless of one’s current opinion of the case, the facts and circumstances have not yet had a full and fair hearing. When that occurs, this pilot will be returned, to continue his career as a professional airman and a fine employee.

Unfortunately, in the meanwhile, he and his family are suffering financially. Family circumstances and certain extraordinary, one-time expenses have all come at just the wrong time… many of us have “been there.â€￾ To pay bills he has been forced to liquidate his retirement accounts.

There is a special fund which has been established in this pilot's name to help he and his family for which USAPA is seeking donations (which I believe is the only donations they are seeking at this time). It's not for USAPA, it is for this pilot.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Well then Oldie, why dosen't the post just say that? Sounds like to me they are just looking for money for USAPA not to help a "former member".

It DOES say that. At least the one I read does. But, in keeping with the West tradition, they should have closed the letter by saying, "But, we'll never forget- It's ALL about MEEEE!"

 

[EastUS]

As usual you have little idea about the topic at hand yet you carry on as though you are an expert.

Try reading the Federalist Papers. Start with #10 by James Madison. The founding fathers were very worried about the possibility of a tyrnny of the majority, hence our Democratic Republic form of government.

The only difference is that in their day the government was even less directly controlled by the voters than it is now.

The only office holders chosen directly by the people were in the House of Representitives. They were very worried about ill informed emotional voters, i.e. people like EastUS.

I've noted that I'm no constitutional scholar..but hack away in any case sir. I agree with your take on the federalist papers, and previously noted that James Madison voiced concerns in that area. You might also bring up Tocqueville's ramblings for added support while you're at it. Heck, for that matter; you could toss in Mr Jefferson, if one seeks out a seriously concerned person's views on the threat of oppressive government, although his worries were more about a despotic minority in government, than of any majority's "Tyranny", and even espoused that the people should be ready and willing to rise up and displace any government if/when it ill served their interests. One could even construe that he was a huge fan of "The Tyranny of the Majority". I believe that our major differences of opinion here relate to actual effect, rather than voiced concerns =What do the expressed concerns have to do with the actual structuring of the respective branches of government?

I'm naturally quite certain that they were all "worried" about my sort of "ill informed emotional vote" back then, and would have eagerly and enthusiastically embraced everythng that you see fit to attribute to them two centuries later....since most of those involved were such easy-going/non-radical people, who would themselves never act on radical thought and emotion..and say...start a war of open rebellion or anything.....no problem 😉

In any case; I'd love to be able to have any ability to know what the founding fathers would have thought about the Nic, "relative seniority" and the "righteous position" of the west. I'd personally guess that they might not actually have seen things as you may wish to think.

 

[EastUS]

There is a special fund which has been established in this pilot's name to help he and his family for which USAPA is seeking donations (which I believe is the only donations they are seeking at this time). It's not for USAPA, it is for this pilot.

Sounds like a worthy cause to me.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Unfortunately, in the meanwhile, he and his family are suffering financially.

In other words...no rainy day fund, no savings, just a career spent living paycheck to paycheck at a third rate airline and hoping that somebody will always be there to bail him out for his poor decisions. He spent over two decades at an airline that used to be an industry leader in pay, yet now he has no money. Pathetic.

 

[kubotapilot]

Sounds like a worthy cause to me.

How bout the special fund for OUR 300 about to be furloughees ??? Or is USAPA the same as their predecessor ???

 

[ableoneable]

I've noted that I'm no constitutional scholar..but hack away in any case sir. I agree with your take on the federalist papers, and previously noted that James Madison voiced concerns in that area. You might also bring up Tocqueville's ramblings for added support while you're at it. Heck, for that matter; you could toss in Mr Jefferson, if one seeks out a seriously concerned person's views on the threat of oppressive government, although his worries were more about a despotic minority in government, than of any majority's "Tyranny", and even espoused that the people should be ready and willing to rise up and displace any government if/when it ill served their interests. One could even construe that he was a huge fan of "The Tyranny of the Majority". I believe that our major differences of opinion here relate to actual effect, rather than voiced concerns =What do the expressed concerns have to do with the actual structuring of the respective branches of government?

Clearly you are not a constitutional scholar. You were, however, a commissioned officer of the United States Armed Forces. I know this because you bring it up constantly.

If memory serves you were required to swear an oath to protect and defend the very constitution with which you freely admit you are not an expert.

How someone could gain an officers commission with so little an understanding of the Constitution of the United States is beyond me. I hope that blue suit command has corrected this alarming deficiency in their officer corps.


Let's look at the score so far. West pilots who were captains at the time of the merger are going to the right seat. West pilots who were employed as F.O.s at the time of the merger are headed for the street.

East pilots who were two thousand deep in furlough territory at the time of the merger are going to be keeping their jobs. Looks like theft to me. Don't let the facts cloud your judgment.

BTW, Mr. Experience how much flight time did you say you had when you were first hired by your USAir predecessor airline?

Oh that's right you don't answer questions when the answer is contrary to the B.S. you have espoused about how you were hired when airlines had real standards.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...West pilots who were employed as F.O.s at the time of the merger are headed for the street...

We can only hope a know-it-all like yourself is one of them.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Clearly you are not a constitutional scholar. You were, however, a commissioned officer of the United States Armed Forces. I know this because you bring it up constantly.

If memory serves you were required to swear an oath to protect and defend the very constitution with which you freely admit you are not an expert.

How someone could gain an officers commission with so little an understanding of the Constitution of the United States is beyond me. I hope that blue suit command has corrected this alarming deficiency in their officer corps.


Let's look at the score so far. West pilots who were captains at the time of the merger are going to the right seat. West pilots who were employed as F.O.s at the time of the merger are headed for the street.

East pilots who were two thousand deep in furlough territory at the time of the merger are going to be keeping their jobs. Looks like theft to me. Don't let the facts cloud your judgment.

BTW, Mr. Experience how much flight time did you say you had when you were first hired by your USAir predecessor airline?

Oh that's right you don't answer questions when the answer is contrary to the B.S. you have espoused about how you were hired when airlines had real standards.

You keep referring to the time of the merger as if it has relevance. It was a snapshot it time and has no bearing on the present and in no way is attributed to you or any other pilot who is merely a bus driver. You have heard the who saved who argument is crap directly from the mouth of the CEO which is really irrelevant in a true trade union environment in any event.

For over three years the groups have been separate. Any recalls or advancement has been purely based on attrition or lack thereof and strength or weakness of the respective route systems. The East pilots could easily argue the primacy of today's snapshot as governing the future. Of course as you should have realized the future is uncertain and there is no such thing as career expectation and you exist in a profession based upon entitlement not fairness which is purely subjective to the individual and certainly not a meritocracy.

There is a new union and it has a constitution to be defended. It merges according to union entitlement principles with the caveat of conditions and restriction to mitigate the short term impact of the merger.

You keep bringing the Capitalistic notion that seniority is something to be jockeyed for and as if there is some merit in one persons value over another by way of argument. That thinking simply does not exist in trade unionism as value in class and craft is only achieved through time.

Persons you refer to as previously furloughed in six months will be occupying and flying metal(East by the way and reduced by some 40 planes since the merger was announced) while some out West will be furloughed. Should the East pilots then have more subjective value? Should a snapshot today or one in six months have more primacy as it will be related to the here and now. No, value of seniority should be assigned only by who was hired first regardless of present or future circumstances. There is a reason the pilot profession is in the toilet. Pilots advance based on the general acceptance of collective bargaining and unionism and so few get it or have a clue of how its supposed to work. It's no surprise why the last 25 years have seen such a decline for professional aviators and in keeping with your mindset it is a guarantee you will wake up 10-15 years from now and not be able to accept why it hasn't got any better because you will still avoid truly looking in the mirror.

 

[ableoneable]

We can only hope a know-it-all like yourself is one of them.

This from our only confirmed liar on this board.

"I am not a USAir pilot and have no dog in this fight."

"Oh wait, I forgot, I am a USAir pilot and I do have a dog in this fight."

Care to explain the two stories you have been telling.

Others tried to cover for you by saying that it was probably your wife "borrowing" your identity.

QUOTE(oldiebutgoody @ Nov 7 2007, 09:52 AM)
The whole "career expectation" thing was totally ignored by Nicolau. AWA CEO AND President both acknowledged that BOTH carriers would have ceased to exist. Puts both even in "career expectations" to me. Also, the West did not have any wide body or international flying at the merger time. So just how are they now entitled to it?I never heard anybody in the East talking about straight DOH, but that everyone should get credit for time served with the company. The arbitrator ignored all of it, even choosing to use an incorrect seniority list for the East guys which was submitted by the West side. Looks pretty slanted to me, and I'm a bystander. ALPA's entire goal in this was to destroy the East guys seniority for future mergers. If the Nic award stands, they accomplished their goal.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

This from our only confirmed liar on this board.

"I am not a USAir pilot and have no dog in this fight."

"Oh wait, I forgot, I am a USAir pilot and I do have a dog in this fight."

Care to explain the two stories you have been telling.

Others tried to cover for you by saying that it was probably your wife "borrowing" your identity.

No liar here. I stand by EVERYTHING I said. And, I stand by my statement that I HOPE that YOU are one of the NEW FURLOUGHEES. If someone's got to go, may as well be the ignoramuses!

I also hope that YOU get to fight for YOUR rightful seniority when you get back, possibly AFTER another merger or two. Since "bumping" is not (and has never been) allowed, you can argue how your "Time" is more valuable than someone else's (what a jerk!)

And no, I don't have to explain ANY of it to you, my ignorant friend!