U.S Pilot Labor Thread, 8/10 - 8/17

[BajaBabe]

All you have to do is watch the Pilot Video in CLT oh my God the true winner is DOUG The pilots are so busy shooting themselves in the back. If anyone would have accused me of being a traitor as the very cavalier snotty pilot spewed his pompous tirade about his authority.Oh well let the boat sail!!! The USAPA representative should have called it for what it was an attempt to discredit there efforts. Ego big boys and power will get you every time. I have offered to sit at the table with all of you for free but I am a lowly flight attendant. USAPA takes one step forward and six steps back . You all need to grow up because you are not fit to toss burgers . Tuck in your shirts ,shine your shoes ,smile, make your mothers and family Proud....Shush we all secretly love our jobs ................ Fall Down Seven Times Get Up Eight

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

What pilots don't get is that we're suppose to watch each others' back, not stab each other in the back.

The A scale pilots threw the B scale pilot under the bus. When management came after their paycheck they couldn't understand why we wouldn't march to the edge of the cliff with them.

Now USAPA is trying the thrown all the West pilots under the bus. Truly shameful.

USAPA isn't throwing anyone under the bus. Trade unionism is predicated off entitlement, plain and simple. Seniority is predicated off the guy being around longer going first, otherwise it would be a meritocracy. There are no annual reviews, no performance evaluations, no Captain interviews, no reviews of sick leave usage to determine advancement and so longevity rules the day. Unions long ago determined that leaving it up to the company invited all kinds of problems fraught with favoritism and destructive to unity. lf it isn't left up to the company it sure shouldn't be left up to pilots individual whims or a weak non-policy and a octogenerian arbitrator. Individual arbitrary opinion has no place in a communistic endeavor which is what a union is and to invite it in is disaster. Conditions and restrictions should mitigate the impact of a merger but at the end of the day, if trade unionism is to rule, the guy/gal who has been around longer should go first.

If you haven't noticed you are working for less than half of what you did 25 years ago. Do you ever wonder why? It's because the pilot profession is comprised of individuals with strong opinion who are their own worst enemies and refuse to set aside individual need and oversized ego and accept they are blue collar workers, heavy equipment operators, and they are no different than a guy working the floor of a factory. Factory workers operate a machine and stamp out a piece of metal and pilots do the same, it is just called an ASM(available seat mile). You are told where and when to go, and as shown recently how to do it by someone with far less practical experience than the rank and file, despite the experience and judgement the one tasked with the job has accrued. The companies understand you better than you understand yourself.

The only thing shameful is someone expecting something out of touch with true trade unionism and advancing his position beyond what his time has earned. "Snapshot", is not a trade unionist term, it is something an individual will argue for himself ahead of the concept of union when all the points of his argument were completely beyond his control and had nothing to do with craft and class.

I left aviation behind and entered the white collar world, because at least it is fairly consistent in being true to Capitalistic rules. I could bet the next 15 years that my pay will be pushed by performance and supply and demand and pilots as long as they share your view will have seen their better days and recovery of any pay is likely at best to match inflation.

 

[exB717Flyer]

USAPA isn't throwing anyone under the bus.

What else do you call it when a union tries to renegotiate a seniority list to favor one side? And don't even try to tell me the list USAPA will be passing to management is "fair". Fairness is either agreed to by both sides or by a neutral.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

What else do you call it when a union tries to renegotiate a seniority list to favor one side? And don't even try to tell me the list USAPA will be passing to management is "fair". Fairness is either agreed to by both sides or by a neutral.

Seniority is what it is and should never have been altered in the first place and it is being restored to an entitlement union list as it should. You may be the best pilot at Airways but that has nothing to do with career advancement. The lousiest employee in the whole company may be the next one to upgrade and there is nothing fair about it. Either the free market rules or entitlement rules but trying to mix the two just creates ineffectiveness and that is why the profession and unity is in the tank. Thirty years of deregulation and the profession still hasn't figured out why guys working on docks make more or why air traffic controllers have blown by them in pay. Pilots are a bunch of individuals vying for what's best for number one, unwilling to be part of system that advancement that has nothing to do with anything but time. It's a free for all, so why be surprised the career isn't what you thought it would be. Company superiority, financial performance, or ones own work record having nothing to do with it, pilots are heavy equipment operators, skilled labor and are no different than the guy driving the city busses in PHX. The only difference is that the time and cost to acquire the skill, replacement requirements, and the relatively small pool of people in your class and craft would give you some leverage if pilots acted like labor. Obviously you would rather spend time envisioning yourself in the corporate suite as though your skill set had something to do with the success or failure of your company and your blue collar union job somehow has greater or lesser weight because of something completely irrelevant to piloting an aircraft. Conditions and restrictions should be used to maintain the status quo until full integration can take place. Depending on the groups they could be a few years or many.

Leaving aviation has been liberating and at day one my pay exceeded 80% of the "list", I left behind and I have twice the time at home. I would suggest it because apparently you haven't figured the union thing out but at least you have a lot of company in that regard.

 

[hp_fa]

Nicolau was no more a "neutral" than Osama Bin Laden is a practicing Catholic. Both sides overplayed their respec tive hands IMO and the old codger made up a ruling that suited his beliefs,

Bob, if I recall correctly Nicolau was suggested by the East negotiators.

If someone has the actual information please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ussnark]

Bob, if I recall correctly Nicolau was suggested by the East negotiators.

If someone has the actual information please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

No one "suggests" anyone, under the then, ALPA, rules.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Don't know if he was suggested by either side. The process is to start with a list of arbitrators and the two sides alternate striking names from the list until only one is left.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

Don't know if he was suggested by either side. The process is to start with a list of arbitrators and the two sides alternate striking names from the list until only one is left.

That is correct and Nicolau was picked on the third strike.

There are no true "Neutrals" in existance on the planet.

Why must you play this silly game? Nicolau met the legal definition of neutral on the issue of seniority integration between AWA and USAirways. His personal biases, whatever they may be, are irrelevent since he was agreed to by both sides.

Seniority is what it is and should never have been altered in the first place and it is being restored to an entitlement union list as it should.

You just don't get. I had seniority at AWA and the Easties had seniority at USAirways. Seniority isn't transferable. The fact that an East pilot has been at US for a gillion years doesn't entitle him to be above me.

Lemme put is this way: in 2005 when the merger closed the bottom active East pilot was a 1986 hire, correct? So was he 'junior' or 'senior'? Obviously, being at the bottom of the list made him very junior indeed. Right? RIGHT??!!!! His DOH still only yielded him the bottom position. Yet a DOH integration with AWA would make him in the top 15% at AWA. In other words, the AAA MEC and now USAPA wants very junior pilots pre-merger to become very senior pilots post-merger. Seniority is relative and not an absolute. Gee, I wonder why Nicolau didn't buy the East's argument!!!

 

[Phoenix]

There are no true "Neutrals" in existance on the planet.

EVERYONE brings a bias to the table, whether it be the dinner table or the negotiating table.

EVERYONE picks a side, consciously or not they pick a side.

Nicolau was no more a "neutral" than Osama Bin Laden is a practicing Catholic. Both sides overplayed their respec tive hands IMO and the old codger made up a ruling that suited his beliefs,

A ruling that he felt would likely withstand a court challenge. Which to date has proved true.

There exists no court challenge to Nicolau.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

What is the color of the sky in your world? This is past history and old news get over it! If your crown jewels are so profitable why so many trips to BK courts? I wish I could be in your crown jewels Sept 1 and listen to all you guys say CACTUS. Priceless

Well one of those trips to BK was to get rid of U's pensions. I think the first one was nefarious as well. Anything to hurt the very people who work in a SERVICE INDUSTRY! I have to give huge large gigantic kudos to all who work for AAA. I keep wondering where the pressure cooker is going to blow but you know what? I don't think it will. The employees are the people who have to face the public and for whatever it is worth to you, I respect and admire every one of you.

UU <--------who knows that straight DOH (with fences) is the only fair way to go.

 

[Barberpole]

what happened, Barberpole?

I thought we might have a "prayer meeting"


No?


hmmmm...

Thought so.

Your posts are so idiotic I don't know where to begin. I hope you're not a pilot and I PRAY you're not a negotiator. If that's the case then we're all screwed and you'll undoubtedly have us working for free because "the revenue just isn't there."

I suggest you talk to somebody with some training in economics, finance, maybe a negotiator. If revenue was the sole driver of pay then people would be quiting Goldman Sachs in order to get a job with WalMart. You might want to consider yields and profit/operating margins when determining what the company can afford. At times I am hopeful that we can restore this profession and then I go and read a post from the likes of you. Please tell me you're not a pilot.

By the way, Ryan Air which is arguably the lowest cost operator in the world pays first year captains $209/hr to fly a 737.

just out of curiosity do all you easties who frequent this board with all your years in the bizz believe Machtuck's assertion that the company just doesn't generate enough revenue to give us industry parity?????????????????? Eastus, goodiebutoldie, phoenix, jetjoke??? Is this the prevailing attitude out east?

 

[nostradamus]

Don't know if he was suggested by either side. The process is to start with a list of arbitrators and the two sides alternate striking names from the list until only one is left.

Jim

The transition agreement did not mention Nicolau's name. alpa, the runaway train, wanted him badly for the seniority issue, hmmmm.

C. The parties will discuss the issue but, if they do not resolve it within one (1) week
of its submission under paragraph B, the submitting party may refer it to a Board
of Adjustment (under Section 204 of the Act) of two (2) persons appointed by the
Association, two (2) by the Airline Parties collectively, and a neutral arbitrator
either agreed or selected from the following list using the alternate strike method
(with first strike determined by coin toss), provided that a mediator under Section
V. above may not serve as an arbitrator under this Section X.
1. Richard Bloch
2. Carol Wittenberg
3. Lawrence Holden
4. Edward Krinsky
5. Ira Jaffe

 

[machtuck]

Your posts are so idiotic I don't know where to begin. I hope you're not a pilot and I PRAY you're not a negotiator. If that's the case then we're all screwed and you'll undoubtedly have us working for free because "the revenue just isn't there."

I suggest you talk to somebody with some training in economics, finance, maybe a negotiator. If revenue was the sole driver of pay then people would be quiting Goldman Sachs in order to get a job with WalMart. You might want to consider yields and profit/operating margins when determining what the company can afford. At times I am hopeful that we can restore this profession and then I go and read a post from the likes of you. Please tell me you're not a pilot.

By the way, Ryan Air which is arguably the lowest cost operator in the world pays first year captains $209/hr to fly a 737.

just out of curiosity do all you easties who frequent this board with all your years in the bizz believe Machtuck's assertion that the company just doesn't generate enough revenue to give us industry parity?????????????????? Eastus, goodiebutoldie, phoenix, jetjoke??? Is this the prevailing attitude out east?

Blah blah blah...

Newsflash, I was responding to a comparison to DAL/NWA...perhaps I wasn't clear. And Parker has already forewarned of what they will agree to going forward. I hope we can do better, but if you're a West pilot, I wouldn't look for much of a raise.
Further, I'm as much a pilot as you are. It is patently unfair of you to take soundbytes and try to lecture me on airline economics.

I'm clear about them. I'm also clear in my opinion that the company is going about enhancing revenue in all the wrong ways.

You guys out west are funny, you complain about the union, you don't join, some actually are actively trying to destroy it...and at the same time, you are expecting a parity contract in the next months or so...

more bi-polar than my ex.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

There exists no court challenge to Nicolau.

Correct. It exists only as an ALPA bargaining position with no enforceable seniority as argued by Jeffry Freund(AWA Merger Counsel)

 

[Phoenix]

Correct. It exists only as an ALPA bargaining position with no enforceable seniority as argued by Jeffry Freund(AWA Merger Counsel)

I think Freund is a swell guy and all.

It also occurs to me that any organization, that wishes to give their opinion regarding the merits of NIC, is wasting their time until they are granted the title of "plaintiff".

And even if they should become "plaintiff", they will have to use arguments a little more clever than "We hate you."