US pilot labor thread 6/21-6/27

[EastUS]

So is it "Right" that west lineholders face furlough while east furloughees will get their jobs?

If universal "Rights" and "Wrongs" are so important to you I would like an answer.

That or you can state that because I don't measure up to your particular and peculiar standards I do not deserve a response.

If I am in error I apologize.

Speaking only for myself: My personal notion is that length of service should trump for furlough issues. I believe that actual work time given to the company should take precedence. You would have my vote in support of that idea. We, all of us as human beings, have differing opinions. I'd strongly suggest that the west make theirs known as well...of course..that would take becoming some part of the union process.

Any interest in adopting a list based on length of service out west?....How about rewarding work perfomed?.....Didn't think so.....So enough about "windfalls" for the east.

 

[ableoneable]

Speaking only for myself: My personal notion is that length of service should trump for furlough issues. I believe that actual work time given to the company should take precedence. You would have my vote in support of that idea. We, all of us as human beings, have differing opinions. I'd strongly suggest that the west make theirs known as well...of course..that would take becoming some part of the union process.

The truth of the matter is that there is no way for the west pilots to actually participate, other than contributing funds.

USAPA time and time has stated that the east posses all the votes they need to force a new seniority list as part of a combined contract. (i.e. They have no real use, or need, for the west pilot's votes.)

In exchange for membership USAPA offers the benefits of a representative vetted and appointed by USAPA's own appointed leadership.

These selected appointees are not subject to recall and therefore have no accountability to their constituency.

Thus, the west pilot group will give USAPA the illusion of a fully representative body without having to actually provide representation.

 

[EastUS]

The truth of the matter is that there is no way for the west pilots to actually participate, other than contributing funds.

Thus, the west pilot group will give USAPA the illusion of a fully representative body without having to actually provide representation.

Suit yourselves then. I just gave you an example (myself), of one of the most adamant/vile/evil-easties actually being ready to vote in favor of your notions valuing length of service in the furlough issue.

"USAPA time and time has stated that the east posses all the votes they need to force a new seniority list as part of a combined contract. (i.e. They have no real use, or need, for the west pilot's votes.)" I disagree with having 'no real use"...but again..that's just my opinion. What IS certain is that you gjys/gals have taken yourselves out of the picture. This hardly gives much reason to fret over your opinions...as they'll not be backed up by votes...or anything really.

Speaking of giving people "illusions"....WTF's the mighty AWAPPA/Leo circus ever done that's beneficial to you folks in ANY way?

We can banter back and forth indefinately. I feel that all would be better served by universal participation. Your side disagrees. I've confusion as to how any out west sees that perpective as any real gain...but I'm not out there among you. Nothing prevents your pursuing legal avenues to attempt a Nic field goal, and I don't "get" where USAPA participation can harm you. No matter..we are where we are.

 

[ableoneable]

Suit yourselves then. I just gave you an example (myself), of one of the most adamant/vile/evil-easties actually being ready to vote in favor of your notions valuing length of service in the furlough issue.

I give you due credit for your reasonableness on this issue.

Where you and I fundamentally disagree is DOH/LOS. You feel it is fair and equitable and I feel that relative seniority is the better solution.

The truth no doubt lies somewhere in between.

While I agree with the east perspective that they brought the widebody flying to the table and should therefore enjoy some sort of super-seniority or first right of refusal to bid that equipment I don't feel that their past hardships give them the right to pass along misfortune to the west pilots.

That is to say that I think the east cries of "furlough protection" are a clear land grab.

Every former east furloughee should see the street before the juniormost AWA pilot at PID.

The east pilot group seems to believe that because of all the bad things that happened to them in the past they should be able to foist this misfortune onto the west pilot group because the west is made up of a bunch of "punks" who deserve some misfortune.

"USAPA time and time has stated that the east posses all the votes they need to force a new seniority list as part of a combined contract. (i.e. They have no real use, or need, for the west pilot's votes.)" I disagree with having 'no real use"...but again..that's just my opinion. What IS certain is that you gjys/gals have taken yourselves out of the picture. This hardly gives much reason to fret over your opinions...as they'll not be backed up by votes...or anything really.

Speaking of giving people "illusions"....WTF's the mighty AWAPPA/Leo circus ever done that's beneficial to you folks in ANY way?

AWAPPA has but one purpose; To protect the arbitrated seniority award.

Should USAPA negotiate a new contract it will be by definition a joint contract. They will of course attempt to incorporate into this contract a "new" seniority list of their own making.

When this occurs AWAPPA will be in court with an injunction compelling adaptation of the arbitrated award to which USAPA is bound.

This is their only purpose.

The really ironic thing, which was pointed out by one of the east's outgoing ALPA reps, was that the vote to change representation to USAPA would seal the fate of the Nicolau award. As long as ALPA remained there was a possibility of a modification. Because USAPA is bound by all previous contracts and commitments but does not have the ability to revisit them, the Nicolau award became a hard fact the moment USAPA took over.

We can banter back in forth indefinately. I feel that all would be better servd by universal participation. Your side disagrees. I'le confusion as to how any out west sees that perpective as any real gain...but I'm not out there among you.

We see no real advantage to the level of "participation" USAPA is willing to offer.

"You can join and pay dues but we will decide who will represent your interests for you. If a few west pilots will only step forward and agree to put the interests of the east pilots before those of the west, we will allow these individuals to represent the west pilots."

Not the kind of "representation" we are interested in having.

 

[checksix]

Please substantiate this claim. I have laid out several lines of argument;

Former east furloughees still employed while former west lineholders go to the street.

East pilots with less time in service working while west pilots with more are furloughed.

What's your point here, sir? The decision that was made was done so by management. The east, nor the west, had nothing to do with the decision to furlough. The reason the west is furloughing more is due to the stated fact that management believed the west was over staffed by 100 pilots.

To deny a jumpseat to an east pilot because a west pilot is being furloughed is a gross misjudgment on your part and the F/O as well. I will add that it is foolish to use the jumpseat as a method of punishment; it's a professional courtesy and should be utilized as such.

 

[767jetz]

Wow, the rarely seen double personal attack.

ableoneable,

This is the SOP for this particular group. The more you stay on topic, shine a light on the facts, not allowing them to redirect the conversation, and refuse to back down from their attacks, the more personal and angry the attacks will become. But substance and discussion of the actual issues are glaringly absent or conveniently twisted.

The fact that a West pilot who brought a job to the merger is being furloughed before an East pilot who did not is unconscionable, and you are 1000% right to continue to point out the hypocrisy of the East's position. Good for you!

 

[BottomFeeder]

ableoneable,

This is the SOP for this particular group. The more you stay on topic, shine a light on the facts, not allowing them to redirect the conversation, and refuse to back down from their attacks, the more personal and angry the attacks will become. But substance and discussion of the actual issues are glaringly absent or conveniently twisted.

The fact that a West pilot who brought a job to the merger is being furloughed before an East pilot who did not is unconscionable, and you are 1000% right to continue to point out the hypocrisy of the East's position. Good for you!

DELETED BY MODERATOR

We see you are not able to stay on topic as well or gave substance to the actual discussion with your first attack.

Yes it is a shame that the AWA MEC & ALPA allowed this to happen. The AWA MEC had the choice to come to terms but they took the hard line stance. Now they have to live with the consequences of the ALPA Transition Agreement. Exactly how much is a 1000% right?

 

[767jetz]

Yes it is a shame that the AWA MEC & ALPA allowed this to happen. The AWA MEC had the choice to come to terms but they took the hard line stance. Now they have to live with the consequences of the ALPA Transition Agreement. Exactly how much is a 1000% right?

And this is where we disagree. I do agree it is a shame, but IMO it was the East MEC who took the hard line first and allowed this to happen. You simply can not say that YOUR hard line was somehow righteous and their's was not. That would be very one-sided. The West offered solutions and protections outside of the East's demand for DOH, and it was the East's hard line that lead to the impasse. Now the East if living with LOA 93 and facing DFR suits the instant they pass any contract that reorders the legally arbitrated list.

That is all I will say on the subject, as I will not let you drag me into 30 more pages of attacks and rebuttals just because my view differs from yours. Besides, ableoneable is doing a fine job arguing the case for the time being. If it makes you feel better to level some more insults and attacks my way and to have the last word, then have at it. It will only go to illustrate your demeanor.

And btw, 1000% was not a typo. It is an expression, as in more than 100% correct. Get it?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

And this is where we disagree. I do agree it is a shame, but IMO it was the East MEC who took the hard line first and allowed this to happen. You simply can not say that YOUR hard line was somehow righteous and their's was not. That would be very one-sided. The West offered solutions and protections outside of the East's demand for DOH, and it was the East's hard line that lead to the impasse. Now the East if living with LOA 93 and facing DFR suits the instant they pass any contract that reorders the legally arbitrated list.

That is all I will say on the subject, as I will not let you drag me into 30 more pages of attacks and rebuttals just because my view differs from yours. Besides, ableoneable is doing a fine job arguing the case for the time being. If it makes you feel better to level some more insults and attacks my way and to have the last word, then have at it. It will only go to illustrate your demeanor.

And btw, 1000% was not a typo. It is an expression, as in more than 100% correct. Get it?

ok USA320. 🙄 Oh that's right, you are his twin.

 

[EastUS]

Mr. United Spin Master,

We see you are not able to stay on topic as well or gave substance to the actual discussion with your first attack.

June 24.... 767jetz: "....since I really don't care if you tear each other up in your little civil war." 🙄 But once again: "The fact that a West pilot who brought a job to the merger is being furloughed before an East pilot who did not is unconscionable, and you are 1000% right to continue to point out the hypocrisy of the East's position. Good for you!"

"hypocrisy of the""since I really don't care if you tear each other up in your little civil war." "This is SOP for this particular...."

 

[Piedmont1984]

The furlough decision by management was driven by economics. Our seniority lists remain separate as of this date. Had USAPA lost the election, I have very little doubt that the lists would still be separate due to factors we all recognize - such as the ALPA lawsuit, a no vote on any joint contract with the Nic intact, etc.

Therefore, furloughs from both east and west would have happened in either scenario, and the reaction on the part of numerous west captains to deny jumpseat is irrational, immature, unprofessional and self defeating in the long run.

It is unfortunate that west pilots with greater length of service than their east counterparts are being furloughed. But we are where we are, and two separate lists - by definition - will have two separate lists of furloughees.

 

[trunion]

East pilots also deny the jumpseat. The difference is that when it happens to a west pilot he shrugs his shoulders and moves on. When it happens to an eastie he calls his chief pilot, his wife and his mommie.



But the fact that you guys are still taxiing around on both engines and an APU to show the company that you mean business is of no import to the shareholders?

I guess all of you guys better start taxing on one engine before the company looks into this and fires your asses.

I can't believe you would make statements like these. You are spouting off and you know it.

So, the west pilot just walks away from his commuting flight and does nothing about it. I don't see any 'shoulder shrugging' types on this message board.




INTEGRITY MATTERS

 

[Richard]

Stop the personal attacks now.

Discuss the issues, NOT the posters.

 

[trunion]

ableoneable,

This is the SOP for this particular group. The more you stay on topic, shine a light on the facts, not allowing them to redirect the conversation, and refuse to back down from their attacks, the more personal and angry the attacks will become. But substance and discussion of the actual issues are glaringly absent or conveniently twisted.

The fact that a West pilot who brought a job to the merger is being furloughed before an East pilot who did not is unconscionable, and you are 1000% right to continue to point out the hypocrisy of the East's position. Good for you!

Should the West pilot that brought a job to the merger, come to the East and take a job from an East pilot that brought a job to the merger? Where should the West pilot go to stay off the furlough list.

Right now the pilots are on two seperate seniority lists...What is your answer to this issue?

If your answer is Nic, remember that the Nic needed a joint contract to be implemented. That did not happen.

Who would be furloughed if the Nic had been implemented?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The really ironic thing, which was pointed out by one of the east's outgoing ALPA reps, was that the vote to change representation to USAPA would seal the fate of the Nicolau award. As long as ALPA remained there was a possibility of a modification. Because USAPA is bound by all previous contracts and commitments but does not have the ability to revisit them, the Nicolau award became a hard fact the moment USAPA took over.

Your reliance on the statements of those reps as being the end all definitive correct interpretation of what might happen speaks volumes of your pick and choose position. Much like everybody here. Me included. What will happen? It's your best guess as is mine. The outgoing reps statements sounded more like sour grapes than anything of substance.

So will Nic stand? By contract and commitment it had to be voted in to take effect. A new joint contract under ALPA must be passed by both sides individually. That was under their rules. We are/were considered separate until it passed. The NMB usurped ALPA rules and commitments by issuing the single system ruling and subsequent certification of USAPA. Does that modify the separate ratification? My "Best guess?" Yes it does. I think you will find most courts are very reluctant to meddle in internal union policies.