US pilot labor thread 7/13-7/20

[ableoneable]

Oh no. You called me a scab, not the moderators. I simply responded with a slur.

My point is that I did not object to your slur yet you asked me what I found objectionable about your intensely witty alteration of AWAPPA.

One of the accepted definitions of scab is one who seeks to displace another from employment

USAPA's DOH/LOH scheme seeks to furlough pilots who were employed at the time of the merger and replace them with pilots who were on the street.

The logic behind this arrangement is that your furloughees "paid their dues" or "sacrificed themselves on the USAir alter" etc etc. The fact that east furloughees had worked and accrued, not earned, seniority at a company that no longer exists has no bearing on the current situation.

When the furloughs are completed in March 2009 we will be in this situation. Now USAPA's apologists claim that this is not USAPA's doing but merely an unfortunate circumstance. They fail to aknoledge, however, that this is exactly the outcome that USAPA wishes to achieve. One only needs understand what USAPA has always meant when they have said they seek "furlough protection" for the east pilots.

This is a cute way of saying; "We (USAPA protector of the east) wish to protect our pilots and keep them employed while we send west pilots who were employed at the time of the merger to the street and transfer their jobs to our pilots. i.e. Scabbing.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Why don't you listen to what your own CEO has to say? Since we are TWO seperate pilot groups, with TWO separate seniority lists, the company is constrained by contract and law to administer the furloughs SEPARATELY.

The west's disproportionate reliance on leisure markets also dictated where the furloughs came from.

The west's refusal to accept a LOS compromise simply excaserbated the predicament your group now finds itself in.

And at the risk of repeating myself - can you gues how long I have been with this company? And if you can then would you please inform me exactly whose job I am trying to take?

 

[ableoneable]

It is a phenomenon which is time related and is commonly referred to as "the last straw" - Nicolau being the precipitating event.

So let's look at your logic tree.

USAir LEC/MEC deletes the pensions.

This pisses off the membership but they decide not to recall their reps because "national" somehow orchestrated this fiendish plot.

Clearly their reps are either; incompetent, national dupes, have sinister motives, yet--

They are not recalled and in fact some run for re-election and win.

Then the Nicolau arbitration comes to a close and the USAir pilots decide that it is time for ALPA to go because your MEC/LEC gave away the pension three years ago.

It is easy to see why logic regarding the arbitrated seniority list makes no impression but simply glances away.

 

[LSS]

Again, then why the three year delay between the pension give-away and the decertification drive?

If the MEC "needed to go" why was no recall mounted? In fact I believe some of the reps involved were re-elected in the interim.

I still see a logic disconnect.

The disconnect is because you evidently do not know the history (or you choose to ignore it). When the pilots tried to recall the CLT reps we had ALPA National (Paul Rice) throwing out any proxies that had been completed in different colors of ink (protecting ALPA National's CLT puppets) and in the PHL recall the same Paul Rice allowing faxed proxies (hoping the PHL reps would get tossed because they were a thorn in the GAG's side). You tell me how to discern if different color ink was used on a proxy that was faxed. This is but one example of ALPA National's meddling in our affairs.

Leading up to the termination of the DB plan and in fact the very day that the MEC agreed to terminate the plan, the pilots were being told that this would be put out for pilot ratification. Why didn't ALPA audit the DB plan to confirm the BS the company was spewing? Why does ALPA National have all those advisors (Economic and Financial Analysis, R & I, etc.) and CWS on retainer (including their own in house attorneys) if they're not there to serve the pilots they were supposed to represent? Glad ALPA did such a great job representing AWA, because they sucked at representing the US Airways pilots.

 

[EastUS]

One of the accepted definitions of scab is one who seeks to displace another from employment

Sure is..."Save Dave" was supposedly, far more "valuable" than the east people in your minds. A neverending west shot towards the east (post-Nic/pre-election) was that we should all "man up" (whatever "man up" actually means in "Captain Cool"-westie-speak..I can only assume it involves dressing like complete fools-blue jeans/hawaiian style ridiculous shirts, crossed arms, arrogant stupidity..a baseeball cap or two...and perhaps ballet tutus and small rodents for all I know) and live with any/all decisions made. For almost a year, all we heard was "It's OVER!!"..."Quit your whining!"/etc ad nauseum. Fine. We did, and we ridded the place of Alpa and Nic. Now it's your turn to do some soul-searching as to just how truly brilliant it was for you "fellow pilots" to gleefully throw out 'You can live on LOA93 forever!"...."NO Fences!!"..."Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is comig to town!"...."I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"...etc. You made your bed. Quit your whining.

If you wish to deal with any practical issues = fine. If you've still some fantasy that your "It's ALL about MEEE!" BS's EVER going to sell out here..Guess again.

ableoneable"I can't tell you how I know but the west was willing to compromise on many issues." Umm...SURE you were. Seems funny that you can't so much as think of ONE actual example of that. You wee told repeatedly that Nic would not EVER sell...and the rest is history.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So let's look at your logic tree.

USAir LEC/MEC deletes the pensions.

This pisses off the membership but they decide not to recall their reps because "national" somehow orchestrated this fiendish plot.

Clearly their reps are either; incompetent, national dupes, have sinister motives, yet--

They are not recalled and in fact some run for re-election and win.

Then the Nicolau arbitration comes to a close and the USAir pilots decide that it is time for ALPA to go because your MEC/LEC gave away the pension three years ago.

It is easy to see why logic regarding the arbitrated seniority list makes no impression but simply glances away.

Our list of grievances with ALPA were numerous, and as time went by and events multiplied, the grievances gathered momentum. The award was "the final straw".

Your interpretation is simplistic.

Gotta go.

 

[ableoneable]

Why don't you listen to what your own CEO has to say? Since we are TWO seperate pilot groups, with TWO separate seniority lists, the company is constrained by contract and law to administer the furloughs SEPARATELY.

The west's disproportionate reliance on leisure markets also dictated where the furloughs came from.

The west's refusal to accept a LOS compromise simply excaserbated the predicament your group now finds itself in.

And at the risk of repeating myself - can you gues how long I have been with this company? And if you can then would you please inform me exactly whose job I am trying to take?

Another non sequitur.

Yes this is occurring because of the fractured operations.

You conveniently ignore the fact that this is exactly the scenario that USAPA wishes to achieve through a DOH/LOS seniority list.

USAPA wants an exchange to take place. Former east furloghees replacing working west pilots. Though what is happening now is not directly through USAPA's design it is their stated goal. i.e furlough protection (east pilots only)

With respect to the west refusing to "compromise", at every single meeting between east and west, easts opening position was; Absolute DOH for furloughs.

I can't tell you how I know but the west was willing to compromise on many issues. It would have been possible for every east pilot to have a chance to bid a widebody slot before any west pilot could. East, however would never budge from this opening position: "You must repudiate the arbitrated award and accept our original DOH proposal as a starting point."

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here's another one. Good fences make good neighbors.

 

[ableoneable]

Sure is..."Save Dave" was supposedly, far more "valuable" than the east people in your minds. A neverending west shot towards the east (post-Nic/pre-election) was that we should all "man up" (whatever "man up" actually means in "Captain Cool"-westie-speak..I can only assume it involves dressing like complete fools-blue jeans/hawaiian style ridiculous shirts, crossed arms, arrogant stupidity...and perhaps ballet tutus and small rodents for all I know) and live with any/all decisions made. For almost a year, all we heard was "It's OVER!!"..."Quit your whining!"/etc ad nauseum. Fine. We did, and we ridded the place of Alpa and Nic. Now it's your turn to do some soul-searching as to just how truly brilliant it was for you "fellow pilots" to gleefully throw out 'You can live on LOA93 forever!"...."NO Fences!!"..."Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is comig to town!"...."I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"...etc. You made your bed. Quit your whining.

If you wish to deal with any practical issues = fine. If you've still some fantasy that your "It's ALL about MEEE!" BS's EVER going to sell out here..Guess again.

East, your problem is you keep equating the rhetoric on this board with the actual east/west discussions.

I can assure you that no-one on the west merger or negotiating committee made the statements that posters made here that you attempt to attribute to the general west attitude.

Our people recognized that the east pilots would feel that they should be entitled to the widebody positions that opened due to east attrition. This, along with other items, was on the table.

The problem is it never got to this issue because your reps insisted that the west accept their initial DOH/LOS proposal with its restrictions unchanged as a starting point. This was a nonstarter yet you continue to see the west as the intransigent party.

 

[hp_fa]

Here's another one. Good fences make good neighbors.

From outside the scrum Nicolau and fencing sounds like the basis of an attempt at a negotiated peace. But, that is just me.

 

[EastUS]

East, your problem is you keep equating the rhetoric on this board with the actual east/west discussions.

Hmm..perhaps I am after all..since these are pretty much some of the very few west-east discussions actually taking place. Isn't it true that the west is adamantly opposed to joning the Union and participating at any level? I wonder where any west-east discussions are actually going on then? As for further dissecting the dessicated corpse of Alpa?..in regards to such having ANY useful realtionship to today?...What's the point?...I couldn't honestly care less anymore about what happened under the Alpoid insanity period....althought the pension surrender, without the slightest whimper even..will come to the surface at times. As far as what presumed, utility value any discussion of Alpa still has here...I'm missing it entirely.

I did get a kick from classic "Alpa-thought" = ableoneable: "I can't tell you how I know but the west was willing to compromise on many issues."

Ummm..."I can't tell you how I know" What is it?...Some issue of National Security?..and...naturally..we should all just "trust you"? 😉 Spare us all.

Please excuse me folks. It seems that I've finally and completely lost ALL remaining tolerance for westie BS..and all I'm doing is fanning the flames here..which is far and away from my original intent when starting on these boards. Play wiff your widdle jumpseats..pwecious widdle wuns...play phone games..hang dolls..mail excrement..and generally continue to disport yourselves as ignorant little children for so long as you see the need to continually prove yourselves such. Such BS will effect nothing that serves your purposes. I'll treat any/all of you with professional courtesy and decorum within the working enviornment...due to my own principles only. Outside of that..I've no need to fret over, or even acknowledge the very existence of your fine and "Integrity" filled, Noble and "Righteous" bunch.

"Once upon a Time"....It took years of devoted effort, excellent scores in most everything, generally, service to one's country as well, at least a Bachelor's Degree...and a substantial amount of initial experience, as well as good judgement, to ever become "An Airline Pilot"...Clearly, as is made plain out west, and very sadly...those times are now but a footnote in history....

 

[ClueByFour]

USAPA's DOH/LOH scheme seeks to furlough pilots who were employed at the time of the merger and replace them with pilots who were on the street.

And none of the usual suspects here will address this directly. None. Zero.

 

[ableoneable]

Isn't it true that the west is adamantly opposed to joning the Union and participating at any level?

As long as USAPA's official positions are thus;

1. DOH/LOS for furloughs is a cornerstone of USAPA's vision for a combined seniority list and any member must accept and support this concept.

2. USAPPA's reps are appointed, are not subject to recall and are thus not accountable to the membership.

3. USAPPA intends to negotiate a contract that primarily protects the interests of the east pilots and because USAPA has all the votes it needs to ratify a contract the votes of the west pilots are superfluous.

There is absolutely no incentive for a west pilot to join and "have a voice" as limiting and constricting as that would be.

I wonder where any west-east discussions are actually going on then?

None. There is no west entity with which USAPA can talk.

As for further dissecting the dessicated corpse of Alpa?..in regards to such having ANY usefull realtionship to today?...What's the point?...I couldn't honestly care less anymore about what happened under the Alpoid insanity period....althought the pension surrender, without the slightest whimper even..will come to the surface at times. As far as what presumed, utility value any discussion of Alpa still has here...I'm missing it entirely.

Another poster brought this up and I was responding.

I did get a kick from classic "Alpa-thought" = ableoneable: "I can't tell you how I know but the west was willing to compromise on many issues."

Ummm..."I can't tell you how I know" What is it?...Some issue of National Security?..and...naturally..we should all just "trust you"? 😉 Spare us all.

I was not an elected member of the MEC/LEC but was what those here would term one of the "insiders."

"Once upon a Time"....It took years of devoted effort, excellent scores in most everything, generally, service to one's country as well, at least a Bachelor's Degree...and a substantial amount of initial experience, as well as good judgement, to ever become "An Airline Pilot"...Clearly, as is made plain out west, and very sadly...those times are now but a footnote in history....

Spare me.

A great many of USAirways pilots were hired when they were 25 or younger. No one will be much awed by the vast experience anyone that young was able to obtain.

You are clearly very impressed with yourself, as it is your impression that anyone, hired after you were hired, clearly did not have your unique experience and vast qualifications.

Odds are that all of your vaunted experience, at the time you were hired, would leave you uncompetitive in the airline hiring environment from the mid 80s onward.

 

[EastUS]

And none of the usual suspects here will address this directly. None. Zero.

I'm fine with length of service being the determinant myself. No need to really reply though..as you're simply spouting your standard, banal , acid-washed, utter drivel for your reasons of your own sickness...as you're not even a pilot "here". I doubt many others will reply though..given that you're a deadly, expert gunfighter..as "evidenced" in an earlier thread..and a rough-tough "pilot" that can find his way into the front of even .."gasp..choke"..supposedly even a light twin...there's then the additonal "danger" of your proving yourself the finer airman!. You're an utter Joke in extremis.

Good night..and have fun all.

 

[EastUS]

You are clearly very impressed with yourself as anyone hired after yourself clearly did not have your unique experience and vast qualifications.

Nope..I'm just entirely unimpresed with such as yourself and your entire bunch of perpetually adolescent buffoons.

Have a fine evening.