US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[FL430]

Only fence I would consider:
I was for protecting tail numbers of both fleets prior to merger, share growth 50% with co-domiciles (keeps Parker honest). Furloughs and capacity cuts come from respective sides. This way there is flexibility for crews to bid around domiciles, you can stay in domicile with the pre merger seniority you had with the same number of aircraft per merger. Any growth is split down the middle and added to the repsective sides. Co domiciles wouldn't cost the company because the infastructure is already in place.

But all in all the Nic is what was originally agreed to and shouldn't be modified. Simply that is what we all agreed to. If there are any beefs with this issue it isn't with AWA pilots...it is with Gentilly, Stephan and so on. They are to blame becuase they sold you on something they couldn't deliver.

OK more good ideas - there are some really smart people on here and if everyone would just participate constructively instead of fighting a whole lot more could be accomplished. Lets just fight the company for what we all really want.

As an east guy my feelings are that ALPA, our merger and negotiating committee, and Nicolai all sold us out. ALPA had many faults and for many of us this was the last straw and that is why they are gone. We have voted in a new union because that is what we had to do: we have too many years invested in this. For me personally this is my 6 sixth merger. In all the previous mergers ( and some guys have been through even more!) I have been dealt some career setbacks but none of them even compare to what the Nic will do to me. I will not tolerate it and will never vote in any contract that implements it on the east side. If the Nic were fair both sides would be equally pissed about its effects, but instead the west wants to take it to court and have it implemented. I do not blame you guys for doing so. There is enough blame to go around though on both sides.

These are just my feelings and I do respect the opinions of the west guys that are pissed as well. There just has to be a way for all of us to compromise and get what we all want rather than going for years and years in court, paying legal bills, and making the attorneys rich.

Lets keep the good ideas coming and maybe, just maybe we can find our way out of this mess that we find ourselves in.

Parker, Kirby and Jerry Glass are probably sitting back having a nice drink together and smoking a big cigar all the while laughing their asses off.

Lets see if we can stop their laughter!

 

[ALPO NO MO]

After looking at the lawsuit doc's it is spot on about binding arbitration, and this law firm seems pretty impressive.
::SNIPPED::::

My bet is that Nic stays in place and the court will order it implemented. There is no reason from the court's perspective to change this award. They sure as heck aren't going to listen to bleeding heart banter. That won't fly. Fairness is about ALPA merger policy and windfall. Nicolau made is decision and even incorporated age 65 into it.

This is slam dunk.

Nic should not have made any ruling on based age 65 BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THERE, if he did, then we need to start all over again! Once again: IF IT EVER COMES TO IT, THE NIC CANNOT BE IN PLACE UNTIL A CONTACT IS VOTED ON IN BY A MAJORITY OF ALL U PILOTS. Until then, it's a few pieces of paper with names on it. Ride the pony all you want but you're still going around in a circle.

 

[ussnark]

I find it funny that he has represented managements against labor unions, and vice versa.

Why do you find it funny? Why would you only want someone with experience on only one side of a table?

You seem somewhat naive about labor/management issues.

There has to be a reason why the AAL pilots fired him.

He had completed his contract? He asked for more money? AAL guys found a cheaper dude? He want to "nuke" management and they did not? I am certain you will find there is an internal reason as well as an external one. You will likely never find out the internal (the important) one.

AAA unintentional. Not meant to be your ALPA sign.

Seems to me, AAA was the airline code for USAir as well as a designator for USAir people at ALPA. Wouldn't any east pilot know that?

 

[Tiger 1050]

It is really doubtful that any judge is going to throw out the legally voted in union. So what would you like USAPA to do for you? The union you won't join has to agree to implement the nic and then ask the same people who voted out alpa for failing to see this train wreak coming to vote yes to contract that puts nic it in place? What if this thing drags on for 10 years?
I'll be gone in 9 so I guess I'll just have to be happy that the people who "hate" me can get ulcers.
You know as well as I do that whatever judge rules on whatever legal proceeding that no list can be merger until there is a contract voted in by the pilots in good standing at the union which won the last election.

I'd like to make two points here...

First I never said the judge would throw out USAPA. I merely suggested that she implement the nic. After that you'd most likely see a rush of membership applications. There is no love for ALPO here out west. But to think that I, or any west pilot, will subsidize the destruction of their own career is idiotic!

Second I'd like to point out the language in the TA that suggests list implementation after a 12 month period should one or more parties walk away from the negotiating table. I'm no contract expert and there are many here who can better clarify but I believe that clock started when the east refused to negotiate (as a way to stall the nic)... More evidence in the west's case I suppose. Whether or not it sticks I don't know. It has been discussed in other venues however...

 

[AAA#6]

Nic should not have made any ruling on based age 65 BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THERE, if he did, then we need to start all over again! Once again: IF IT EVER COMES TO IT, THE NIC CANNOT BE IN PLACE UNTIL A CONTACT IS VOTED ON IN BY A MAJORITY OF ALL U PILOTS. Until then, it's a few pieces of paper with names on it. Ride the pony all you want but you're still going around in a circle.

Nic didn't rule on 65, he based it on 60. The 65 only affected the fence on the 330's I believe????

 

[AAA#6]

OK more good ideas - there are some really smart people on here and if everyone would just participate constructively instead of fighting a whole lot more could be accomplished. Lets just fight the company for what we all really want.

As an east guy my feelings are that ALPA, our merger and negotiating committee, and Nicolai all sold us out. ALPA had many faults and for many of us this was the last straw and that is why they are gone. We have voted in a new union because that is what we had to do: we have too many years invested in this. For me personally this is my 6 sixth merger. In all the previous mergers ( and some guys have been through even more!) I have been dealt some career setbacks but none of them even compare to what the Nic will do to me. I will not tolerate it and will never vote in any contract that implements it on the east side. If the Nic were fair both sides would be equally pissed about its effects, but instead the west wants to take it to court and have it implemented. I do not blame you guys for doing so. There is enough blame to go around though on both sides.

These are just my feelings and I do respect the opinions of the west guys that are pissed as well. There just has to be a way for all of us to compromise and get what we all want rather than going for years and years in court, paying legal bills, and making the attorneys rich.

Lets keep the good ideas coming and maybe, just maybe we can find our way out of this mess that we find ourselves in.

Parker, Kirby and Jerry Glass are probably sitting back having a nice drink together and smoking a big cigar all the while laughing their asses off.

Lets see if we can stop their laughter!

The real travesty of this whole thing is the guys who got the benefit of age 65 when they were turning 60. As all this goes on the clock is ticking and not in their favor (contract wise).

 

[Tiger 1050]

If the judge rules in your favor, you still haven't addressed the other part of the equation, which is membership - USAPA membership - ratification.

Nic should not have made any ruling on based age 65 BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THERE, if he did, then we need to start all over again! Once again: IF IT EVER COMES TO IT, THE NIC CANNOT BE IN PLACE UNTIL A CONTACT IS VOTED ON IN BY A MAJORITY OF ALL U PILOTS. Until then, it's a few pieces of paper with names on it. Ride the pony all you want but you're still going around in a circle.

You forget that this judge, if she sees fit, can implement the nic regardless of the vote for a new contract. Why? How? Because you continue to sit here and make the case for bargaining in bad faith! That's a no, no. Maybe a stretch but still a powerful argument that you can find in the lawsuit. You guys should read it!

 

[ussnark]

But to think that I, or any west pilot, will subsidize the destruction of their own career is idiotic!

How is it "destruction of"? With USAPA, your career, short term, would be no different than it was pre-merger. Long term, it will be that and more as east pilots retire and you move into aircraft you would never, ordinarily, have had access to.

As paying members of USAPA, you would have input to "conditions and restrictions" that would guarantee no less than your present position. Without, you are subject to the whims of those old FOs.

So you have to wait a few years instead of getting it now. 'Chili keeps saying how young the west guys are. What, exactly, is the problem?

It seems to me that it all boils down to Leo's childish response, "I want it now".

 

[Tiger 1050]

How is it "destruction of"? With USAPA, your career, short term, would be no different than it was pre-merger. Long term, it will be that and more as east pilots retire and you move into aircraft you would never, ordinarily, have had access to.

As paying members of USAPA, you would have input to "conditions and restrictions" that would guarantee no less than your present position. Without, you are subject to the whims of those old FOs.

So you have to wait a few years instead of getting it now. 'Chili keeps saying how young the west guys are. What, exactly, is the problem?

It seems to me that it all boils down to Leo's childish response, "I want it now".

I guess I'm gonna have to quote myself...

Here is what I said earlier! This is why I say there is no waiting! The damage is done. And BTW short term I am getting furloughed (insert choice adjective here)!!!!!!!


"The day this merger took place it changed our cost structure on the AWA side. We took on the economics of the east. Now we find that the original set-up out west will not work with this new economic burden. Of course "burden" should be read as higher cost structure. Please do not take that as a personal attack! So Parker and his cronies will run to the higher yield markets to try and off-set some of these additional costs. When he does this he will pull down what was once a satisfactorily performing market deeming it unsuccessful and moving the assets to "better performing" markets. Review PSA. So you now can see that it can never be as simple as "You have your flying and I'll keep mine." Unless you can change the hands of time and take us back to the days previous then we'll have to continue to fight for what we believe is... Fair."

 

[trunion]

"Core values of Unionism" Like what, threatening to fire thousands of non paying pilots for services unavailable and un-rendered? What does a West guy get for his dues money? Nothing. What does an east guy get? Nothing. More LOA 93 and embarrassing ads in USA Today. I guess they get to pay for frivolous lawsuits filed by a bunch of angry vindictive little trolls all the while said trolls stop at nothing to staple 85% of AMW in flagrant violation of common sense and US law. Which of these is the "core value" you're referring to?

I never acknowledged any of the three letters for recall. I let that period of my life simply die out. I packed up the wife and family and moved on. I have no recall rights at US Air anymore. I made the decision to move on and not look back in early 02 when it was clear to even the casual observer that US Air wasn't a place anyone young enough would choose to be. Not bitter in the slightest. Actually, I've been very lucky since then

I am happy for you and your family. You made a good decision.

I truly respect USAPA for standing up against the erosion of Captain's authority with the ad in USA Today. No harm done to the company and USAPA stood up for the pilots they represent.



We will split hairs over the arbitration because I believe it did not meet the guidelines put in place by ALPA to protect the careers of all of the pilots concerned. Now, I don't need all of the repeat responses from all out West because... BELIEVE ME... I know how you feel. We will have to agree to disagree because nothing you can say will change my mind about it.

ALPA has repeatedly failed the USAirways pilots and their families. They had to go.

The logic on non dues payers... sorry I grew up in a union family, you pay or you don't work.

 

[Tiger 1050]

We will split hairs over the arbitration because I believe it did not meet the guidelines put in place by ALPA to protect the careers of all of the pilots concerned.

Let's review.

Once you get to the arbitration phase of ALPA merger policy you effectively throw those guidelines out the window. The arbitrator is NOT beholden to ALPA what so ever!!! That is the risk. You knew it. We knew it.

It's kinda like Russian Roulette. If you don't like being shot, you probably shouldn't play...

 

[trunion]

Let's review.

Once you get to the arbitration phase of ALPA merger policy you effectively throw those guidelines out the window. The arbitrator is NOT beholden to ALPA what so ever!!! That is the risk. You knew it. We knew it.

It's kinda like Russian Roulette. If you don't like being shot, you probably shouldn't play...

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[sharonstoneseat]

I think the EAST never expected the resolve of the AWA group.
So much so they are scared to come tot the PHX crew room.

They thought that USAPA would make AWA pilots roll over and quit. Hardly.

They understand and respect resolve, that is obvious.

But you flatter yourself on the second statement...

They frequently show up in the B4 Flight Attendant Crew Room . Remember, they are accustomed to sharing space with their cabin crews so they just go where their F/A's go. They are surprised when we inform them that the pilot crew room is way over in A gates.

It is such a novelty to see a pilot up there that we enjoy talking with them. Had one in from CLT last week. He was pleasant, polite, professional. Plus I know they are considered "mature" but I have to tell you, he was real easy on the eyes too.

Sorry....he really was................

 

[EastUS]

You forget that this judge, if she sees fit, can implement the nic regardless of the vote for a new contract. Why? How? Because you continue to sit here and make the case for bargaining in bad faith! That's a no, no. Maybe a stretch but still a powerful argument that you can find in the lawsuit. You guys should read it!

I find what I've read to be both highly imaginative and entirely comical literature myself. To presume "bad faith" is a leap of interstellar proportions for starters. Should any contract proposal mandate the acceptance of a 50 cent per hour wage rate, there'd equally be no compelling reason for the majority of the electorate to accept that either, nor any onus attendant to their stated desires to never vote such a travesty into play. That's regardless of wheher or not said kingly wage was suggested in any arbitration or not. 50 cents per hour would also remain a mere proposal,and one that requires no special respect so as not to be considered any rejection by way of any supposed/imagined/fantasized "bad faith".

Off topic = I hope that your knee's healing up well and quickly sir.

 

[EastUS]

Only fence I would consider:
I was for protecting tail numbers of both fleets prior to merger, share growth 50% with co-domiciles (keeps Parker honest). Furloughs and capacity cuts come from respective sides. This way there is flexibility for crews to bid around domiciles, you can stay in domicile with the pre merger seniority you had with the same number of aircraft per merger. Any growth is split down the middle and added to the repsective sides. Co domiciles wouldn't cost the company because the infastructure is already in place.

But all in all the Nic is what was originally agreed to and shouldn't be modified.

I'm fine with the first paragraph...it's the last line quoted that fails ANY test of actual reason imho, and purely evidences the west group-centric, personal greed that's made all of this such a mess to date....and, I must note, fully contradicts and utterly discards any/all of the apparent reason within the above paragraph...

Exactly how was nic EVER "originally agreed to"???? 😉 ..or, should I more properly say; originally A-Greed too? 😉