US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
Let's see.....
I personally have 10.5 years since starting at AWA. The Nicolau list places me amongst east 1986 hires. That's 10.5/22-23. Not 8/23. On the date of the merger I was a junior captain on the 737, where I will remain until downgrade class in November. The east pilots around my seniority on the Nicolau list were also junior captains but will remain captains after I downgrade. The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant to our respective positions when merged. If DOH were implemented I would be a very junior first officer instead of the senior one I will soon be and those same east captains would become senior overnight. Not fair to me or my peers on the west.
My friends facing furlough from the west on October 1 will leave while pilots hired years later and contractually on a third, bottom, list remain - at least for a while. Pilots who were on furlough with very little hope of ever returning will remain as well. DOH places these same west pilots well below those same formerly furloughed east pilots. Certainly not fair.
I have said before that I admire the tenacity of both sides in protecting their own. We on the west are playing our hand and I do believe it makes the east side nervous. No one knows how the courts will decide but decide they will. Then and only then will this controversy end. The nightmare, however, will remain for the duration of our careers.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2002
- Messages
- 9,464
- Reaction score
- 14,119
I believe it went to panel of 3 arbitrators. should know by November how it plays out.
ALPO NO MO
Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2007
- Messages
- 99
- Reaction score
- 4
It is really doubtful that any judge is going to throw out the legally voted in union. So what would you like USAPA to do for you? The union you won't join has to agree to implement the nic and then ask the same people who voted out alpa for failing to see this train wreak coming to vote yes to contract that puts nic it in place? What if this thing drags on for 10 years?
I'll be gone in 9 so I guess I'll just have to be happy that the people who "hate" me can get ulcers.
You know as well as I do that whatever judge rules on whatever legal proceeding that no list can be merger until there is a contract voted in by the pilots in good standing at the union which won the last election.
After looking at the lawsuit doc's it is spot on about binding arbitration, and this law firm seems pretty impressive.
USPA and EAST pilots have missed this from day one, and Jack Stephan and gang missed it also. In my opinion all these guys have dishonored the EAST pilots, because it is known fact that they have held back relevant information from the pilots and made false promises to this day. Seeham is an opportunist, he is only interested in a paycheck (that's evident based on the fact he goes both ways representing labor or management.) He is exploiting USAPA and the EAST also. No question.
1. Binding Arbitration is a mechanism that allows for expeditous decisions and decreases the workload of the courts. That is why judges never turn them over unless it can be proven the arbitrator did something dishonest or was so way off base that there is compelling reason to overturn it. In this case both sides were ALPA carriers at the time of the merger, and agree to use ALPA's merger policy as the outline for binding arbitration. He used what was given to him, and EAST representatives are quoted from subsequent meetings that there was no problems or concerns with George Nicolau.
2. Jack Stephan and USAPA representatives will have to go to deposition and attest why from day 1 they attempted to circumvent the ruling and implementation of the award. There are many quotes on the lawsuit doc's and I am sure there is much more evidence that will be presented in the discovery phase to show EAST ALPA and USAPA's intent on not following the binding arbitration. Who's bright idea was it to say things like, "it will never see the light of day", and "the Nic will die on the shelf". These are very compelling quotes, and are going to be tough to explain. In essence the judge will most likely see USAPA for what it is, and Stephan as the ALPA MEC Chairman may look complicit that he never bargained in good faith.
3. The company isn't going to do anything for the time being. They will sit back and watch. They won't risk going into something that has capital damages, especially when they are not privy to the case. They will either get an injunction placed on them or they will sit this out.
In essence USAPA and Stephan will have to explain themselves and the judge will decide.
My bet is that Nic stays in place and the court will order it implemented. There is no reason from the court's perspective to change this award. They sure as heck aren't going to listen to bleeding heart banter. That won't fly. Fairness is about ALPA merger policy and windfall. Nicolau made is decision and even incorporated age 65 into it.
This is slam dunk.
USPA and EAST pilots have missed this from day one, and Jack Stephan and gang missed it also. In my opinion all these guys have dishonored the EAST pilots, because it is known fact that they have held back relevant information from the pilots and made false promises to this day. Seeham is an opportunist, he is only interested in a paycheck (that's evident based on the fact he goes both ways representing labor or management.) He is exploiting USAPA and the EAST also. No question.
1. Binding Arbitration is a mechanism that allows for expeditous decisions and decreases the workload of the courts. That is why judges never turn them over unless it can be proven the arbitrator did something dishonest or was so way off base that there is compelling reason to overturn it. In this case both sides were ALPA carriers at the time of the merger, and agree to use ALPA's merger policy as the outline for binding arbitration. He used what was given to him, and EAST representatives are quoted from subsequent meetings that there was no problems or concerns with George Nicolau.
2. Jack Stephan and USAPA representatives will have to go to deposition and attest why from day 1 they attempted to circumvent the ruling and implementation of the award. There are many quotes on the lawsuit doc's and I am sure there is much more evidence that will be presented in the discovery phase to show EAST ALPA and USAPA's intent on not following the binding arbitration. Who's bright idea was it to say things like, "it will never see the light of day", and "the Nic will die on the shelf". These are very compelling quotes, and are going to be tough to explain. In essence the judge will most likely see USAPA for what it is, and Stephan as the ALPA MEC Chairman may look complicit that he never bargained in good faith.
3. The company isn't going to do anything for the time being. They will sit back and watch. They won't risk going into something that has capital damages, especially when they are not privy to the case. They will either get an injunction placed on them or they will sit this out.
In essence USAPA and Stephan will have to explain themselves and the judge will decide.
My bet is that Nic stays in place and the court will order it implemented. There is no reason from the court's perspective to change this award. They sure as heck aren't going to listen to bleeding heart banter. That won't fly. Fairness is about ALPA merger policy and windfall. Nicolau made is decision and even incorporated age 65 into it.
This is slam dunk.
What if the judge rules against you?
Then at least we will have tried.
On a side note, I was a member of the west Merger Committee during the first year of this fiasco. From day one the east MEC and MC treated the west like we were a bunch of fools. I do believe they truly thought themselves to be superior to us. Since the Nicolau decision was rendered the east's attitude remained that the west could be rolled over. This was fueled by alpa national and their treatment of this whole mess. You might have thought that we "got lucky" with the Nicolau decision but I think the east was completely surprised by the grit and determination of the west. If anyone thinks for one minute that the west won't play this out to the very end they are kidding themselves.
In the end, if the judge rules againse us we will accept our fate satisfied that we did everything possible to support fairness (at least in our eyes).
How's this for an idea as far as seniority integration is concerned?
If an east pilot wishes to transfer west he does so under the Nicolai seniority award.
If a west pilot wishes to transfer east he does so under date of hire.
Any added flying will be split - added west flying goes to west / added east flying goes to east.
Furloughs would be handled the same - flying taken out west will result in furloughs west / flying taken out of east will result in east furloughs. East/ west flying to/ from hubs will be split 50/50%.
Now I did not post this to get bashed so please just respond with a bit of optomism and lets see if we can come up with something constructive.
Would this even have a chance of working?
If an east pilot wishes to transfer west he does so under the Nicolai seniority award.
If a west pilot wishes to transfer east he does so under date of hire.
Any added flying will be split - added west flying goes to west / added east flying goes to east.
Furloughs would be handled the same - flying taken out west will result in furloughs west / flying taken out of east will result in east furloughs. East/ west flying to/ from hubs will be split 50/50%.
Now I did not post this to get bashed so please just respond with a bit of optomism and lets see if we can come up with something constructive.
Would this even have a chance of working?
I think the EAST never expected the resolve of the AWA group.
So much so they are scared to come tot the PHX crew room.
They thought that USAPA would make AWA pilots roll over and quit. Hardly.
Well the problem you have is that the company has been growing the east and shrinking the west, and plans to continue to do so. How about we go to a neutral third party to render a final and binding decision?
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2004
- Messages
- 1,737
- Reaction score
- 897
If the judge rules in your favor, you still haven't addressed the other part of the equation, which is membership - USAPA membership - ratification.
Only fence I would consider:
I was for protecting tail numbers of both fleets prior to merger, share growth 50% with co-domiciles (keeps Parker honest). Furloughs and capacity cuts come from respective sides. This way there is flexibility for crews to bid around domiciles, you can stay in domicile with the pre merger seniority you had with the same number of aircraft per merger. Any growth is split down the middle and added to the repsective sides. Co domiciles wouldn't cost the company because the infastructure is already in place.
But all in all the Nic is what was originally agreed to and shouldn't be modified. Simply that is what we all agreed to. If there are any beefs with this issue it isn't with AWA pilots...it is with Gentilly, Stephan and so on. They are to blame becuase they sold you on something they couldn't deliver.
If your paycheck were zero, would you still come to work?
About working both sides of the street. Would that not be a positive, that should seem to enhance his skills and abilities. (I don't know the guy, at all) I would want an "opportunist" representing me.
Did you mean something different?
and, reading your screed, I sense a not east pilot. Don't know why.
I have met the guy and was not impressed. But that is my stance.
I find it funny that he has represented managements against labor unions, and vice versa. There has to be a reason why the AAL pilots fired him.
AAA unintentional. Not meant to be your ALPA sign.
Okay, this confirms my sense that you are not an east pilot.
No one I know ever thought AWA pilots had less resolve than anyone else. Where do you get this?
and, about the "crew room". Why would anyone from the east, if they have no business there, go there? I don't know of too many east pilots that view any crew room as a place to socialize, YMMV. Those commuting are worried about the next flight. Those on an overnight are heading for a layover.
Scared? Hardly.
Give me a Mr. Cleveland each time and I'll happily visit the crew lounge any time I touch PHX.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
