US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[EastUS]

The question was IF the judge ruled in the west's favor, what would happen. DOH would be moot wouldn't it?

By no means. It'd merely open up an entrely different can of worms around here.

As for: "proves that you are emotionally driven." Cant' say I'm sorry that the truth of comparing your expressed versions of "It's ALL about MEE!" to that of the west "hero" "Leonidas" hits a nerve. 🙄 Surprisingly; I believe I can live with whatever estimation you wish to imagine..but seriously: What IS it with you "men" out west nowadays? Are you people out there heavy Oprah/Dr Phil addicts or what? Perhaps it's just a generational difference thing for some...

 

[Tiger 1050]

Good to hear and no worries sir = It's an effect from having the more instantaneous weight/G-loading on the downstairs side of the fence, as opposed to the muscles/etc being set and more gradually at work for the upstairs move. Gets better in a few weeks as we've discussed, and back to "new" in what seems like forever, but's only a matter of months.

OK..Back to the mutual "Oh Yeahs!!??" and our regularly scheduled programming

It's not so much the impact when planting my foot. It's more of the bending when I am planting my good leg on the lower stair... I bend my knee going up. No problem. I bend my knee going down. Issues...

BTW we need a little change in the channel every now and then. Don't want to be too myopic! Right?

 

[LSS]

It's not so much the impact when planting my foot. It's more of the bending when I am planting my good leg on the lower stair... I bend my knee going up. No problem. I bend my knee going down. Issues...

Hey Tiger...
What you're experiencing (difference between going up or down stairs) in my experience is totally normal.. (although your knee issues were more serious than my torn cartlidge on both sides of the knee).
In time, this too will improve I suspect... but it seems like forever when you just want to get on with things...
I'm 7 months out now... and the improvement is huge!
Hang in there...

 

[Megasnoop]

It is really doubtful that any judge is going to throw out the legally voted in union. So what would you like USAPA to do for you? The union you won't join has to agree to implement the nic and then ask the same people who voted out alpa for failing to see this train wreak coming to vote yes to contract that puts nic it in place? What if this thing drags on for 10 years?
I'll be gone in 9 so I guess I'll just have to be happy that the people who "hate" me can get ulcers.

NO-MO, since were only one class apart and are gone within a year of each other, were both dealing with this 23yr/10yr deal that Tazz is all zonked out about. I think Tazz about our age. Ive read a lot of pie-in-the-sky posts on the chat board over the years, but this latest flurry the past two days rewrites lack of knowing how the RLA works.

not only is no judge going to throw out a union, but no judge is going to force USAPA to remove DOH from its NMB-accepted constitution. Union members rewrite union constitutions, not judges. Even during their worst days of corruption and federal trusteeship, the Teamster constitution was modified (under the watchful eye of the DOJ) by the members, not by the courts. These westies wont join. So they go to a judge to circumvent the authority of a duly-elected union. Like thats ever going to happen. But as the Tazz said, and I agree, this has to play out. imho, the west overplayed their hand and played it too early.

I read over their lawsuits and Tiger1050 posts. Problem I see is that Tiger and the west lawsuit make the leap that ALPO East = USAPA. Not so. Adding Jack Stephan to the suit? Again the leap that ALPO East =ed USAPA. Im not seeing the connection. I bet old Jack is steaming right now. Maybe he can force ALPO to pay his bills since he was an ALPO stooge at the time.

To the TWA flyer, ask yourself, if there had been ENFORCED DOH in the TWA/AMR lawsuit, would you even be posting on this board, or would you be flying a 777 to Europe today? You think USAPA is screwing you? Look back at the number ALPO did to you. You think this will be resolved quickly in court? How long the TWA/ALPO DFR been going on?

You know as well as I do that whatever judge rules on whatever legal proceeding that no list can be merger until there is a contract voted in by the pilots in good standing at the union which won the last election.

On your last point, right on. Theres no way a judge is going to implement a contract on his own, with or without the NIC. Judges dont do that, especially when there are federal laws (NMB, RLA) already in place which cover the parties involved. Again, refering to the IBT, it literally took an act of congress allowing the courts juristiction to get that union under control. Maybe their McAlvena was right to just file a grievance against his downgrade. But if somehow that happened, we could just appeal. LCC might appeal also. snooper

 

[Eastisleast]

Tru union says:

"ALPA has repeatedly failed the USAirways pilots and their families. They had to go."


It wasn't ALPA, it was your OWN pilots! It was your pilots that failed you during senority integration, and its the same group that is failing you still as usapa.

I will say it till i'm blue in the face...you should have come to the west group with ANYTHING besides DOH and you probably would have got it. You need to live with binding arbitration, good bad or indifferent, start getting used to it.

Lets let the courts decide this now and move on, no matter the outcome, knowing we all did what we could and start getting what we deserve from the company.

 

[prechilill]

I have said before that I admire the tenacity of both sides in protecting their own. We on the west are playing our hand and I do believe it makes the east side nervous. No one knows how the courts will decide but decide they will. Then and only then will this controversy end. The nightmare, however, will remain for the duration of our careers.

I apologize to the USAviation.com community for the use of "Heathens" to describe a certain group on these boards. Rules are made to be followed in life to establish and maintain civility and order and the use of words like "heathen" or psychotic" as I have been called are not within the terms of conditions.

Tazz, we have more cards to play, and will, once we get a better read on how USAPA handles this first round. Based on their weak misread of the initial round of lawsuits, I think Leonidas is well on the way to making some strong progress for closing this whole integration debacle. Parker will probably thanks us later LOL.

Second point, and I agree with you here totally, the east is nervous. They don't really know what to do and it shows. USAPA never had a plan based on solid legal principles, just a fairly tale and wish. Opening arguments will certainly be amusing. The courts will decide based on case law, contracts and the rule of law. Fiction will be separated from fantasy and Leonidas is presenting two very black and white cases. When you look at the recent Alaska arbitration decision and how the decision is being followed by both company and pilots it serves as an example that arbitration is held in high regard to the courts in resolving disputes, even though decisions are routinely challenged by disenfranchised parties. The point about Alaska is it demonstrates how important decisions not only between individuals but between corporations and unions are addressed and maintained through arbitration. USAPA's strategy was never to challenge the arbitration decision (they know they can't) but to challenge the seniority integration provisions of the transition agreement. As we have discussed before, they will have a tough time convincing the judge their signature on the bottom of that document isn't really their signature. The courts will see ALPA was their legal representative for the entire seniority integration and the steps they agreed to were closely followed by all parties. In effect, the contract between both pilot groups and the company was valid.
Surprises are always possible, but Leonidas hired an all-star attorney with deep convictions about our case. Marty Harper has an enviable track record and is a giant in the Arizona legal community and unlike Seham, he rarely makes mistakes, especially to the magnitude we have seen with the RICO debacle from Seham and his collection of tier 4 law school flunkies. It will be interesting to see how Tempe legal responds because unlike USAPA, Parker and company have some fairly talented legal counsel, albeit none are really litigators. Time will tell, but progress is being made for the benefit of all.

 

[Pi brat]

It's all about what we brought to the merger, not the time spent at the old company. The merger created a new entity. a 1986 eastie brought the same thing to the merger that I did - a junior captain seat. Wouldn't matter if he was a 1966 hire. A pilot on furlough at the date of merger brought nothing into the mix and shouldn't expect to be senior to a pilot holding an active position. I know you can't wrap your head around that concept because you are incapable of stowing your emotions during a debate.

By the way, I am not whining about the downgrade, simply stating the facts. Looking forward to four more days off in a month and choosing my trips and time off.

No a 1986 hire did not bring to the table what you did. He or she brought billions of dollars in concessions that kept their company in business to do the merger. They had their airplanes returned and replaced with HoJo's colored rat jets after the merger. They brought wide body trans Atlantic flying that AWA would most likely have NEVER done. Nic disregared that and gave it all to you.

As a '86 hire I was a captain before you were ever hired at AWA. I hate you lost your capt seat, I know how it feels, on 4 airplanes.

 

[TWAFlyer]

To the TWA flyer, ask yourself, if there had been ENFORCED DOH in the TWA/AMR lawsuit, would you even be posting on this board, or would you be flying a 777 to Europe today? You think USAPA is screwing you? Look back at the number ALPO did to you. You think this will be resolved quickly in court? How long the TWA/ALPO DFR been going on?

Each merger turns on its' own merits. I would have been very pleased with retaining my relative position as a junior Captain, at the time (as was the AWA/AAA decision by Nicolau). While I had no expectations to eventually fly a 777 to Europe, I did on a 767. Rather, I was stapled below a pilot who had not even been interviewed at the time of the merger announcement and I was eventually furloughed.

Didn't the top 500 plus positions go to USAirways pilots?

The difference between USAirways and TWA at the time of their respective merger announcements was huge. TWA was hiring pilots and other employees, and taking delivery of a brand new B717 every 11 days. Our DOT numbers were second to none on dispatch reliability and on time performance. It was just too bad that the deal with Carl sucked the profits from the efforts of the TWA employees.

As for ALPA, you and other "members" of that union at the time, stood idle by. You were thanking yourselves that it was not happening to you. After all, such a travesty could never happen to USAir, Northwest, Delta or United pilots.........substandard wages, lost retirements, etc.

As for the DFR.....yes, the legal system turns very slowly. However, we are still in the game with an end in sight.

Pilots are their own worst enemies......

Cheers.

 

[traderjake]

"No a 1986 hire did not bring to the table what you did. He or she brought billions of dollars in concessions that kept their company in business to do the merger."

Is the West pilot suppose to give you his job because you gave up something he never had?

That is what a DOH/LOS seniority list does.

Try and buy a house with concession dollars you gave up.

 

[Pi brat]

Is the West pilot suppose to give you his job because you gave up something he never had?

No, a west pilot shouldn't lose his job. East pilots should not get west jobs. That is what fences are for.

 

[tazz]

No a 1986 hire did not bring to the table what you did. He or she brought billions of dollars in concessions that kept their company in business to do the merger. They had their airplanes returned and replaced with HoJo's colored rat jets after the merger. They brought wide body trans Atlantic flying that AWA would most likely have NEVER done. Nic disregared that and gave it all to you.

As a '86 hire I was a captain before you were ever hired at AWA. I hate you lost your capt seat, I know how it feels, on 4 airplanes.

Were you or were you not a junior narrowbody captain when the merger was signed? That's all you brought to the party. You were NOT a widebody transatlantic captain. With all due respect, the fact that you clung to your position at a failing airline and accepted all of those concessions for twelve years longer than I does not entitle you to a purple heart nor super seniority post merger.

We will NEVER agree on what is fair and we don't have to. That is now up to the court system. Once the courts decide then this will be a really ugly place to work because we will be forced to work together despite our polar opposite opinions on fairness.

Thank you for your concern about my downgrade but I am really looking forward to getting off of reserve, having four more days off per month and choosing my time off. That captain thing is really overrated.

 

[tazz]

If you believe your 10.5 years were of benefit to AWA's continued survival as well as the birthing of the current entity..How is it that years worked out east are entirely worthless in your estimation?

My time at AWA contributes NOTHING to the future of the airline and neither does yours. You put in your time and are compensated for it, nothing more. We just work here. Maybe, and just maybe, your concessions helped to keep YOUR airline going in rough times. Hard to say, however, when management squanders those savings in other areas (such as their own pockets). As the east is often quick to point out AWA never had an industry leading contract. (thank you alpa). I view our lack of an industry leading contract as concessions in advance. We have all contributed in our own special way but our length of service gets us nothing more than a spiffy pin.

 

[FL430]

It's all about what we brought to the merger, not the time spent at the old company. The merger created a new entity. a 1986 eastie brought the same thing to the merger that I did - a junior captain seat. Wouldn't matter if he was a 1966 hire. A pilot on furlough at the date of merger brought nothing into the mix and shouldn't expect to be senior to a pilot holding an active position. I know you can't wrap your head around that concept because you are incapable of stowing your emotions during a debate.

By the way, I am not whining about the downgrade, simply stating the facts. Looking forward to four more days off in a month and choosing my trips and time off.

If its all about what we brought to the merger then the 9 A330's , most of the 757's, and all of the 767's should be then fenced from the west indefinately. This is just one additional small part of the Nicolai injustice to the east. I would consider it a windfall.

Sounds like whining to me - i have been downgraded 4 four times due to mergers. If you are in this business you just have to learn to deal with it. Career expectations in this business can change in a 30 day window. Another reason why ALPA merger policy, guidelines, whatever they are are obsolete in this industry.

I know, I know.....I have read all the arguments on here and the arguing could go on forever. Arguing does not achieve results, actions do.

I do not even pretend to be a legal expert....and even experts cannot predict the outcome of court cases, a la OJ, etc. So all of you pilots that keep spouting off on what will or what will not happen with regards to legal judgements are just blowing hot air. You know who you are; Chilli and Eastisleast you two need to give it a rest.. We will just wait and see what happens I guess. For however many years that will take.

 

[AAA#6]

Tru union says:

"ALPA has repeatedly failed the USAirways pilots and their families. They had to go."


It wasn't ALPA, it was your OWN pilots! It was your pilots that failed you during senority integration, and its the same group that is failing you still as usapa.

I will say it till i'm blue in the face...you should have come to the west group with ANYTHING besides DOH and you probably would have got it. You need to live with binding arbitration, good bad or indifferent, start getting used to it.

Lets let the courts decide this now and move on, no matter the outcome, knowing we all did what we could and start getting what we deserve from the company.

This is the fundamental problem.

1. East pilots for some reason blame Nic, ALPA and AWA pilots for the outcome, when in fact it you need to look at the leadership that was suppose to be guiding you. For some reason the leaders didn't want to tell the group that DOH wasn't going to work, or the group didn't want to hear it from the leaders, or both.

2. There is no doubt this is an emotional issue. What seems apparant is that the East pilots expected the West pilots to "roll" over as if that was our place in the world so that East would be happy. This is where everyone missed the turn toward reality. It isn't realistic that one group expects the other group to bow over and give in because one side feels like they got a raw deal. Fact is Stephan should never have agreed to arbitration if he know that the end result wasn't going to be DOH. He is your fall guy. He executed a flawed strategy and sold it to the group.

There is a little bit of this "We are US Airways and we fly to Europe" stuff going around. Big woop AWA flew B747's to Hajj, Kuwait City, Riyadh, Hawaii and Nagoya Japan. We have guys here that flew for EVA, ANA, and Japan Airlines. I would say that is more complex than flying a NA track to Shannon. So all this experience stuff is moot. I am sure there are East guys that have all kinds of "crazy" experience flying Africa, Central Asia, CIA and stuff. Fact is all airlines have a mixed breed of intelligence and experience, and no one is better than the other.

Both sides had their issues, and still do.

One thing is for sure. USAPA miscalculated the West pilots. The resolve and unity are the strongest ever. If the Nic gets touched West pilots will be indifferent to any union that comes on property.

 

[Pi brat]

Were you or were you not a junior narrowbody captain when the merger was signed? That's all you brought to the party. You were NOT a widebody transatlantic captain. With all due respect, the fact that you clung to your position at a failing airline and accepted all of those concessions for twelve years longer than I does not entitle you to a purple heart nor super seniority post merger.

We will NEVER agree on what is fair and we don't have to. That is now up to the court system. Once the courts decide then this will be a really ugly place to work because we will be forced to work together despite our polar opposite opinions on fairness.

Thank you for your concern about my downgrade but I am really looking forward to getting off of reserve, having four more days off per month and choosing my time off. That captain thing is really overrated.

You are right, we will never agree. Tell me this, why are you entitled to those things before me?

Yes, reserve sucks. That is why I don't want west guys coming in on top of me just as I get to be a block holder. Same should go for the west. I don't want what you have or would have had.