US Pilot Labor Thread

[EastUS]

It would not have been expensive to go with a new name as the original plan was to repaint the fleet as soon as feasible.

You're assuming the actual existence of any prior, rational master plan...other than what was actually in place = "Merge/buy/sell and Gimme the many millions for my brilliance!!" The east has seen slightly classier versons of this movie before.

PSA was cool. How tough was it, on even the long days, to fly airplanes with smiles on them? 😉 Ah well, the only constant in this industry is chaos and change.The elements that made PSA a great little flying club were copied directly by Southwest, and could never be replicated by any management that's been in place around here.

 

[ableoneable]

You're assuming the actual existence of any prior, rational master plan...other than what was actually in place = "Merge/buy/sell and Gimme the milions for my brilliance!!"

Well, it's working out pretty well for them so far.

 

[EastUS]

Well, it's working out pretty well for them so far.

In the insane/greed-soaked creature that is corporate America today...such always works out for those sorts, and the employees be damned..as well as all other human beings that are not their own precious selves. I can honestly say that you couldn't pay me enough millions to trade my life or spirit with ANY of those sorts.

 

[machtuck]

Wow...a lucid and reasonable exchange for once...with little or no fighting.

( I must be having a stroke...)

No, the entire "brand" of America West Airlines was sacrificed to the long list of "USAir" merger experiments.

Most of them, but not all, are there to see on the heritage placards.

And, for once, one of your "own" (cluebyfour) has properly described the legal transaction that took place....maybe some westies should read it again.

However, it should be noted that prior to integration of the two corporate entities, America West became a wholly owned subsidiary of USAirways ...not that it matters, but for three years (and to this day) there are those in the valley who maintain West "bought" East...

(perhaps this contributes to their attitude)

I actually don't have any emotional baggage about the callsign, I do think it's silly to have a name on the side of a plane and not use it as a callsign...( I know many do...) especially when it's currently in use.

Good, bad , or indifferent, there are and have been people in the NE corridor who have a longstanding fondness for USAir/USAirways...whatever. 60 years is a long time.

When WolfGang changed to "USAirways" and rebranded the airline...paint, routes, widebodies...it actually worked.

Parker et al has done nothing to 'rebrand" the combined carrier...nothing. This was the perfect time to do it....another missed opportunity from Parker....not his first misfire, either.

 

[machtuck]

Everyone on the west was very aware that the America West name was not going to survive.

The USAir name had, and has, what can only be described as a toxic quality. There are even factions within the east side who have issues with the USAir name.

From a marketing point of view there are plenty of people who intensely dislike(ed) USAir. If you have any doubts go to the Flyertalk forums and poke around.

It would not have been expensive to go with a new name as the original plan was to repaint the fleet as soon as was feasible anyway.

I know it would have been impossible but I would have been pretty happy to finally get a chance to fly for PSA. 🙂

Completely agree.

I'm not sure about a complete rename to a brand-new name...name recognition (branding) is hard to achieve from a fresh start...

I think that resurrecting PSA with the smiley would have been fun...although I can hear the marketing guys now " Pacific Southwest Airlines"...sounds too regional...

But know what? people all along the west coast absolutely LOVED that airline. It was arguably Southwest before there was a Southwest.

People still stop in their tracks in California when the PSA plane rolls up to the gate.

Hard to put a price on that....huh, marketing guys? After all these years....people still stop and stare.

 

[ableoneable]

While I am no fan of Parker, or anyone else in the suit set for that matter. I think we need to take a rational look at him and what he has done so far.

First of all I would not trade him for Tilton. That guy is a disaster.

If USAir survives then all of Parkers ideas; charging for drinks, checked bags etc. are great ideas. If not, then not so much.

No matter how much you hear the pax on flyertalk etc. #### one thing is still pretty clear:

Schedule and price do appear to be king.

Just today I was reading another article where a business traveler was profiled who said he had switched his allegiance from US to WN and now only flew on USAir when it was cheaper than Southwest. So for all this guys condemnations he was still there at the USAir counter when the price was lower.

On the labor front, with respect to the pilots, I think Parker is in the drivers seat. We may or may not be at the bottom of an economic cycle, it might yet get worse, but we are certainly in a poorer condition than we were when negotiations started under ALPA.

The timing is in managements favor.

The only real issue is whether or not separate operations is so expensive that is is worth the price to management to buy a single agreement from labor. I can't see that it is.

First they have a built in whipsaw. Utilizing this they can keep both sides off balance and probably avoid increasing pilot expenses past the next up cycle.

Second they can easily drag negotiations out without ever risking an NMB release to self-help. When the seniority list comes up in negotiations all they have to do is tell the bargaining agent that their lawyers won't allow them to revisit seniority because they have accepted the arbitrated award and they would be exposing themselves to potential litigation.

The beauty part is that it does not really matter whether or not this is true. The important part is that it gives them an out when the NMB shows up to judge the impasse.

Since the NMB will be unable and unwilling to judge the company's potential legal exposure they are unlikely to release the parties into cooling off. I doubt very much that USAPA will disregard the cornerstone of their very existence; DOH, therefore - -

The result, Contract 2004/LOA93 indefinitely, or at least until the next merger, when we get to do it all over again.

 

[machtuck]

Again, I agree completely. (hard to believe)

To add to your point, I just rode out to PHX from CLT and sat next to a california native who usually uses United ... lives in FAT, but travels to ROA a lot.

He said that UAL had been easier, but since USAirways was cheaper on this flight, he took US.

To that end, I concede that Parker may be right about internet pricing and it's importance on bookings.

The advantage and opportunity of whipsaw is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be said....and this is where we shoot ourselves in the foot.

I don't know how this will end up, but I know that we are extremely disadvantaged right now.

 

[EastUS]

If USAir survives then all of Parkers ideas; charging for drinks, checked bags etc. are great ideas.

Second they can easily drag negotiations out without ever risking an NMB release to self-help. When the seniority list comes up in negotiations all they have to do is tell the bargaining agent that their lawyers won't allow them to revisit seniority because they have accepted the arbitrated award and they would be exposing themselves to potential litigation.

The beauty part is that it does not really matter whether or not this is true. The important part is that it gives them an out when the NMB shows up to judge the impasse.

Since the NMB will be unable and unwilling to judge the company's potential legal exposure they are unlikely to release the parties into cooling off.
The result, Contract 2004/LOA93 indefinitely, or at least until the next merger, when we get to do it all over again.

Do you actually and honestly believe any part of the above? 🙄

 

[ableoneable]

Do you actually and honestly believe any part of the above? 🙄

Give me your read on the tea leaves.

 

[machtuck]

Give me your read on the tea leaves.

I know that wasn't for me, but I think (in all honesty) that the seniority section is the least of Parker's concerns...I don't want to sound harsh, but he hasn't given two blinks about the whole
seniority issue for 3 years now...why would he change or hinge a contract on that?
He's gonna say, as he has in the past, "...it's a union thing..."

Will he drag out the contract?...yes, I think so, East/west parity is gonna cost $120M according to Parker...the longer he puts it off, the better for him...

The only thing that will speed him up is a new dance /merger partner.

my honest opinion.

 

[ableoneable]

I know that wasn't for me, but I think (in all honesty) that the seniority section is the least of Parker's concerns...I don't want to sound harsh, but he hasn't given two blinks about the whole
seniority issue for 3 years now

I never said he did care about the seniority situation. I am sure he does not, I am merely pointing out the fact that he can utilize the situation to bring negotiations to a stand still at very little risk to opening the door to self help.

 

[EastUS]

Give me your read on the tea leaves.

"If USAir survives then all of Parkers ideas; charging for drinks, checked bags etc. are great ideas." No need to say much there 🙄

I can't reasonably envision the NMB giving a hair off a gnat's "tail" about any/all even imagined litigious issues concerning seniority. Such will, at best "sound like a personal problem" to that body I believe. What are the actual reasons for them to give any endless slack to management over that? I do not see where they have any realistic "out" there.

I've not seen anything of late that's indicative of management seeing the need for any contract resolution at all. I've no doubts that they'll drag their feet, unless and until it's seen to be in their best interests to package something up for sale/barter/merger/selling to arabs/whatever profits them personally, or it becomes economically wiser to actually negotiate with any degree of good faith. If/when it more suits their postion to want any expeditious contract, Nic won't even be on the radar as any blocking point. Why would it?

St. Nic's not coming to town.

 

[machtuck]

OK, I missed that point. Well, yes, he can use that.....as well as several other stalls to grind the wheels to a stop.

Honestly?

He's in a pickle, I think...if he takes USAPA list with the new contract, he faces the probable repurcussions from the west who get pissed...adding to the overall 'disunity" he says he wants.

If he stalls claiming the list is not OK, the union suits become pissed...and so it goes.

I think the driver that determines the pace is any potential merger...

None in the near future?

stall stall stall

Merger potential?

slap a deal together quick.

Parker will triple his nestegg in any merger...like they all do.

Parker has "indicated" in a crew news, that leaving ops as-is is fine...the remaining "synergy savings" are small...

I find that hard to believe, if I'm on the west coast, and a west plane is available to cover a broken east plane....NO CAN DO...
and likewise for you guys when your out East.

That has to be expensive.

I just don't think he cares about the seniority list as much as you give him credit for....certainly not as the last stumbling block to a contract.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see it in his behavior/track record, at all.

 

[EastUS]

He's in a pickle, I think...if he takes USAPA list with the new contract, he faces the probable repurcussions from the west who get pissed...adding to the overall 'disunity" he says he wants.

Well..they "say" that they don't want disunity. It's just that their actions give the fullest lie to that. Big surprise all around.

 

[ableoneable]

:

I can't reasonably envision the NMB giving a hair off a gnat's "tail" about any/all even imagined litigious issues concerning seniority. Such will, at best "sound like a personal problem" to that body I believe. What are the actual reasons for them to give any endless slack to management over that? I do not see where they have any realistic "out" there.

Look at the history of NMB releases.

When they are deciding if a release to self help is warranted they look at several factors.
A few of which are;

Has the side that is requesting the release bargained in good faith and made every effort to secure an agreement?

A subjective decision, but one the NMB gets to make.



Is the side requesting release being "reasonable" in their bargaining position?

Another subjective question that the NMB gets to answer.

In this case the NMB will see that the company has a concern that if they open the seniority door they may well be exposed to litigation. The NMB may very well see this as a valid concern and that the company is being "reasonable."

In looking at the history of self help requests I am simply prognosticating that it is likely the NMB will decide that a release to cooling off is not warranted under the circumstances.