US Pilot Labor Thread

[EastUS]

In this case the NMB will see that the company has a concern that if they open the seniority door they may well be exposed to litigation. The NMB may very well see this as a valid concern and that the company is being "reasonable."

In looking at the history of self help requests I am simply prognosticating that it is likely the NMB will decide that a release to cooling off is not warranted under the circumstances.

Not impossible. We differ on the degree of likelihood, and will not know until events determine such. If the happy assumption exists out there that any/all possible scenarios will wear down the east so as to buy off on the Nic abortion? = Good luck with that...EVER.

 

[ableoneable]

Merger potential?

slap a deal together quick.

Parker will triple his nestegg in any merger...like they all do.

That is if you believe it is necessary to have a single CBA to successfully complete a merger.

I don't think they would have held up the Delta deal, had it proceeded, due to the lack of a joint CBA.

I don't think that the labor situation had anything to do with the UAL deal falling apart. I think that no-one on wall street was willing to write a check to underwrite an airline merger in that credit market.

Had that not been an impediment the merger would have happened.

If another deal becomes possible, that will enable the suits to buy islands, I really don't think merging three sets of pilots versus two is going to be a big factor.

 

[machtuck]

Well..they "say" that they don't want disunity. It's just that their actions give the fullest lie to that. Big surprise all around.

Hey...listen, I'm just quotin' the guy...every year this goes on does AT LEAST two things that benefit the company....and Parker has spoken these two things HIMSELF on videotape.

1) 120 MILLION a year while East is on LOA 93 compared to West.

2) Regarding growth A330's...(or A350's) he said he would be remiss in his duty as the CEO to not sample offer rates from each "side" as long as ALPA couldn't get a deal done....

(he said that on an older crew news from last year)

WHIPSAW...
And he said "he really didn't want that"...(even with it's potential benefits to the company)...but as long as ALPA doesn't get a deal done, he'll be forced to....

says it all for me...

 

[machtuck]

That is if you believe it is necessary to have a single CBA to successfully complete a merger.

I don't think they would have held up the Delta deal, had it proceeded, due to the lack of a joint CBA.

I don't think that the labor situation had anything to do with the UAL deal falling apart. I think that no-one on wall street was willing to write a check to underwrite an airline merger in that credit market.

Had that not been an impediment the merger would have happened.

If another deal becomes possible, that will enable the suits to buy islands, I really don't think merging three sets of pilots versus two is going to be a big factor.

well, sir, I do believe that it was an issue...but I also agree that underwriting that deal would have been tough.

I also think some egomania occurred between Tilton and Parker....

Here's what I really think:

I think the "suits" don't give 2 bodega's about any pilot seniority issues at the end of the day...

I think the $$$ people who are needed to underwrite these deals DO look at that as a factor before they sign on...

Look at DAL/NWA....there's a reason they did it differently.

 

[ableoneable]

Not impossible. We differ on the degree of likelihood, and will not know until events determine such.

Release to self help, under the RLA, is always a steep mountain for any union to climb. Even a few marbles on the slope will stop it from happening. Given a balanced negotiation it is always less likely that a release will be granted than not, so anything that lends weight to management's side will likely stop it from happening.

If the happy assumption exists out there that any/all possible scenarios will wear down the east so as to buy off on the Nic abortion? = Good luck with that...EVER.

I have no doubt that the east will never embrace the arbitrated list. (It is possible that the courts will eventually compel them to live with it however.)

I do believe, however, that USAPA will find it impossible to secure what they have promised their membership; a new CBA incorporating raises, work rule enhancements and a seniority list of their own creation.

You may well be right that they won't ever compromise on DOH but they will probably grow old waiting for it to happen.

 

[EastUS]

Look at DAL/NWA....there's a reason they did it differently.

And there's a reason, or a great many, why some brain trusts just couldn't pull off any earlier Delta deal.....

Ableoneable: "I have no doubt that the east will never embrace the arbitrated list. (It is possible that the courts will eventually compel them to live with it however.)" No doubt in my mind = Bullwinkle "Hey Rocky!..Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat"..Rocket J. Squirrel "Again?..but that trick never works!"...Bullwinkle "This time fer shore"..And the music plays on.

Abe: "You may well be right that they won't ever compromise on DOH but they will probably grow old waiting for it to happen." Hmmm...looks around for westies in the local neighborhood list..sees none...What's your point? 😉

 

[machtuck]

Wow...we were doing so well.

I think I see where you're going with this now...

You think Parker isn't going to sign because AWAPPA will sue them if NIC isn't in the new CBA?

Dude, all he has to do is print out AWAPPA's own lawyer ( Freund) in his discourse to the court in order to discount and dismiss the East MEC lawsuit from last year....in that the "proposed vacating of something that is simply a negotiating position anyway is silly" (paraphrasing)

Here I thought we were getting somewhere.

 

[ableoneable]

Wow...we were doing so well.

I think I see where you're going with this now...

You think Parker isn't going to sign because AWAPPA will sue them if NIC isn't in the new CBA?

Dude, all he has to do is print out AWAPPA's own lawyer ( Freund) in his discourse to the court in order to discount and dismiss the East MEC lawsuit from last year....in that the "proposed vacating of something that is simply a negotiating position anyway is silly" (paraphrasing)

Here I thought we were getting somewhere.

No, you miss my point.

I don't think parker is going to sign a new contract because it will increase his costs and reduce his options, not because he is terribly afraid of litigation.

Management only gives raises when labor has the leverage. I don't see the leverage and I don't think he feels it.

I just think he will have the option of using the disputed seniority list to further his cause, i.e. never having to raise the pay on either side.

I don't think he is afraid of being sued, I think he is thrilled that he can use it as an excuse to drag out negotiations forever.

Parker: "This seniority list is strictly labor's problem. We have made every effort to stay out of the fray and will continue to do so. It is our hope that labor can solve this problem and when they do we would be thrilled to talk to them about pay increases, work rule enhancements and signing bonuses. We simply can't afford to become involved in a labor vs labor dispute and we will not."

That will play well in the newspapers.

 

[machtuck]

OK...in that, we agree.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce he will delay the $120M minimum increase in any new deal (not to mention any other gains)

He forecasted in that last crewnews for the pilots not to expect ANYTHING beyond parity...

did you see that?

I think this whole East/West deal plays into his hand at every turn...(and this is where you and I disagree) up until a money guy on Wall Street has to sign on for a merger, then, it hurts him.

For what it's worth,

my tea leaves say he will demand to make the 190 part of the min fleet count for each side, so as he parks 73's..he can add a 190 at 75% payscale going forward...you heard it here first.

 

[EastUS]

I just think he will have the option of using the disputed seniority list to further his cause, i.e. never having to raise the pay on either side.

I don't think he is afraid of being sued, I think he is thrilled that he can use it as an excuse to drag out negotiations forever.

All Hail Nic! All Hail Nic! What a magnificent addition to the quality of pilot life he has provided for us all, with the full benefit of your west braintrust's "Righteous Position" that made all this joy possible of course. :blink: 🙄 EVERY other labor union group merged by DOH around here...but that wasn't good enough for you guys and gals. Enjoy the fullest effects of such "It's ALL about MEEE!" BS to your heart's content..and kindly, do cease any future jibes or whines over the BS about not getting any "quick contract". 😉

 

[machtuck]

Well, to tell you the truth, I'd just as soon have a meaningful discussion with "able" if I can.

This may be a "Nic sell"...or not. If so, it won't work on me, and maybe not the company, either.

Regardless, I'd like to have a respectful, and cordial exchange with any west guy that will do so...

How the %#* else are we EVER going to get past this?

Lets talk.
You may call the BS flag on me whenever you want...and I you...simple.

So far, I've enjoyed hearing what "Able" had to say...

 

[ableoneable]

All Hail Nic! All Hail Nic! What a magnificent addition to the quality of pilot life he has provided for us all, with the full benefit of your west braintrust's "Righteous Position" that made all this joy possible of course. :blink: 🙄 EVERY other labor union group merged by DOH around here...but that wasn't good enough for you guys and gals. Enjoy the fullest effects of such "It's ALL about MEEE!" BS to your heart's content..and kindly, do cease any future jibes or whines over the BS about not getting any "quick contract". 😉

Quite, it is all the doing of those evil westies. The east has been nothing but open and forthcoming.

True we felt that bringing in two thousand furloughees as senior to working pilots, and thus exchanging fortunes for misfortunes, was not fair and equitable. How naive of us.

 

[EastUS]

How naive of us.

No argument here. Have good evening.

West naievete in "fair and equitable action" = "Leonidas: "I want the captain seat.and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay fo9r it" prechilled's now classic "Ho Ho Ho!. St Nic is coming to town".."No Fences!"..."It's OVER..get used to it!"...and countless other examples of "fair and equitable" BS....Just far too, too "funny" overall for me to take seriously.

 

[ableoneable]

Well, to tell you the truth, I'd just as soon have a meaningful discussion with "able" if I can.

This may be a "Nic sell"...or not. If so, it won't work on me, and maybe not the company, either.

Regardless, I'd like to have a respectful, and cordial exchange with any west guy that will do so...

How the %#* else are we EVER going to get past this?

Lets talk.
You may call the BS flag on me whenever you want...and I you...simple.

So far, I've enjoyed hearing what "Able" had to say...

Man are you ever in the wrong place.

It's all about the emoticons here baby!

 

[electricjet98]

For what it's worth,

my tea leaves say he will demand to make the 190 part of the min fleet count for each side, so as he parks 73's..he can add a 190 at 75% payscale going forward...you heard it here first.

Ouch...then that's one arbitration (190 placement) that I'm glad we "lost".