US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

An amazing thing to me about the original trial was how Judge Wake accepted virtually everything put forth by the plaintiffs, while not allowing the defendants to present their case. Truly a case of "guilty until proven innocent". Every time I look at the transcripts and see how often the defendants' attorneys were admonished it amazes me. He really didn't let them present an effective case at all, not to mention the initial INCORRECT ruling about ripeness. That one ruling cost both sides in this dispute MILLIONS, not to mention the weeks of the courts' time.

Basic lack of understanding of the RLA and union affairs. This guy is a clown. He proved it time and again. The sad thing is Leonides actually believed the fairy tale coming true in Wakes courtroom, and that is used very loosly, would stand. Total waste of time and money.

 

[Hate2fly]

Yes, let's have two more ALPA worshippers come to the rescue of the west. It is over. The Nic is dead. New bargaining agent. Wake carried you as far as he could.

Swan,

The desert boy should have gone to Penn! He must have been absent when they discussed the ripeness doctrine. Wrecked!

Hate

 

[nic4us]

When will your fighting end?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Can you both now please work for a solution and stop the insanity?!

Absolutely not.

 

[Black Swan]

The next thing coming for the West- the realization of the fact we have a new bargaining agent. Not ALPA. Therefore, we don't have to carry the ALPA baggage (Nic) forward. It is part and parcel of the prior agent.

 

[traderjake]

The Nic is dead.

Wrong, it's just not ripe yet. When it's ripe we got to do this all over again.

All you have done is further delay any pay raise.

 

[Hate2fly]

Wrong, it's just not ripe yet. When it's ripe we got to do this all over again.

All you have done is further delay any pay raise.

Another clueless ALPA supporter statement. You got spanked today! Don't worry, we will save you from yourself!

Hate

 

[Black Swan]

Wrong, it's just not ripe yet. When it's ripe we got to do this all over again.

All you have done is further delay any pay raise.

Get your coin up again. Get some good counsel, as you don't have a clue about the RLA and bargaining agents. Clue- it ain't ALPA, therefore, it ain't the Nic!

 

[traderjake]

God, What is wrong with you? The majority of east captains (yes senior ones) support the junior guys with the exception of a few self centered ones, they know who they are!!!!! Get over it!!!!! What you "believe" is only in your mind and not reality.

Ask any pilot from any other airline who is wrong in this matter and you might get a little glimpse of reality.

 

[Black Swan]

Wrong, it's just not ripe yet. When it's ripe we got to do this all over again.

All you have done is further delay any pay raise.

One difference- you won't have anyone nearly as clueless as Wake in your second reach. That was a rare combination you had there in Phoenix- a rabid judge who must have slept through RLA discussion in law school, and a bunch of pilots willing to part with their cash. Good luck with both of those next time.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Internal union dispute. Just like we told you all along. Baptiste and Wilder spot on . Wake, on the other hand, was absolutely reprehensible in the way he handled this, WITH PREDJUDICE. It was like a mad high school experiment. Of course the jury agreed. Wake practically blindfolded them. Total miscarriage of justice, endorsed by the West. You guys should apologize.

Personally, I don't blame either side. It's our right as Americans to file a lawsuit and make the arguments in our favor. I blame THE JUDGE, who clearly tried to rewrite labor laws to suit his prejudices. Seems fairly incompetent to rule that the issue was ripe, when it clearly isn't. The cost to BOTH sides is not just in attorney fees and court costs, but in careers which have been stalled for over a year, and a stagnant company that may have been able to prosper or merge with a cooperative Pilot group. Judges have tons of resources available to help them make these decisions, but predjudices can blind them to what they mean.

Both sides were forced to argue over nothing. It should have been stopped before it began.

 

[traderjake]

Get your coin up again. Get some good counsel, as you don't have a clue about the RLA and bargaining agents. Clue- it ain't ALPA, therefore, it ain't the Nic!

Stay in your little fantasy world, you won't have to face reality that way..

At least for a little while longer.

 

[Black Swan]

I know what wrong with you.

Ask any pilot from any other airline who is wrong in this matter and you might get a little glimpse of reality.

Come on Luv! After all, they will understand a new hire going in front of a guy with 17 yrs. with no furlough!

 

[luvthe9]

Wrong, it's just not ripe yet. When it's ripe we got to do this all over again.

All you have done is further delay any pay raise.

You will find out in a day or so but get use to it the NIC is DEAD and GONE!!!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

Sorry, I have had a busy day away from reading the decision, but I have read it.

First off, I will be consistent and say that I believe the majority got it wrong, but that is my opinion and it is as valid (or not) as anyone else's opinion.

Second, again from outside the process because I do not speak with the Addington attorneys, I expect them to file a motion for an en banc hearing by the whole court. That is pretty much a no-brainer at this point and won't cost anyone much money unless they need to re-brief the case.

Third, the decision did not deal with the merits of the suit, only that they felt it was not ripe at the time of filing and does not become ripe until a CBA is voted upon and passed. The problem arises of who represents teh West pilots when they have been encompassed within USAPA and without a "West" voice other than the AWAPPA/Leondas folks. That means that if USAPA wanted to negotiate something other than what the constitution calls for they realistically have no one with whom to negotiate. Maybe a solution can be reached to that, but I don't know and that gets into union politics, which I try to steer clear of.

As some others have posted, this really delays the whole situation. Also, what is the response of the Company? That, to me, is a good question.

Anyway, that is what I see from here. I think that the 9th would grant an en banc hearing, but then I thought the Addington appellants would win the appeal.

If you are celebrating, have a beer for me.

The court has chosen not to entangle itself in an internal union matter, and has explicitly said it did not consider the merits (Though they clearly envisioned the possibility that Nic need not be the standard for a DFR claim). I don't understand how a position of non-interference causes delay. They effectively gave USAPA and the company the freedom to negotiate toward a solution that will be acceptable to a majority (to at least get to a ratified CBA, and ripeness for suing, should someone still wish to). Then who knows what standard would take precedence to evaluate if a DFR breach occurred.

We are one happy family locked in a room until we come to an agreement. I think we are better off than with the ALPA veto solution. Together, we will find enough folks from both sides to pass a reasonable CBA negotiated with the company.

 

[luvthe9]

Ask any pilot from any other airline who is wrong in this matter and you might get a little glimpse of reality.

Huh? Any one I have had on my jumpseat has thought you guys are the greediest group of pilots with the largest sense of entitlement!! The margaritas are flowing tonight in PHX I bet.