US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

I told you you would not like what the 9th actually just said.

They said, in layman's terms, you do not have to use the Nic, but if you use anything less and get it passed you are going to get sued and lose. Unless of course you use something the West finds tolerable enough to finally throw up our hands and quit suing you. But here is the fact, you are not getting DOH, not DOH with C&Rs, not modified DOH on LOS, nor any other unilaterally imposed DOH scheme. Anything less than the Nic and you get sued and lose.

The two liberal judges are trying to further mediate the dispute. They are giving you room to do the right thing and simply use the Nic or make other compromises. The conservative judge called BS, said you are guilty and should have to pay for the harm already inflicted.

But to directly answere your question, it does not matter how the rest of the airline merged, anything less than the Nic harms the West. We do not have to tell a judge and jury about Joe Monda, we told an arbitrator about Joe, and the arbitrator decided that Joe benefitted immensly by this merger as it almost instantly moved him from his bottom about to be furloughed position, to a point with some security and furlough protection with hundreds of pilots below him. Just did not give him my captain seat, so it was not good enough for usapa.

Crackpot judges? Hand tied juries? Senile arbitrators? Greedy west pilots? Here is the news flash Swan. The key to our first deal and any future deal was not Wake or Nicolau or some other supposedly biased unfair east bogey man. All we ever needed or will ever need in the future is an impartial decision. The key is you are in the wrong, you hold the moral low ground, you have rationalized a course of action that has compromised your integrity.

Get it yet?

INTEGRITY MATTERS

And I guess it will not be any consideration if your little plan harms the East when you sue. Didn't think of that did you? Of course not, this is all about the West pilots' right to leapfrog by yrs another. Go ahead and sue. The East pilot has the same damage to consider.I can't wait to see how you try the Monda explanation. The jury will hear it this time, cause Wake will be nowhere in sight to do your dirty work and keep it out this time. Get the next round of badge backers ready, cause you will pay this time. INTEGRITY MATTERS. ESPECIALLY IF IT BENEFITS THE WEST.

 

[nic4us]

Nic's the whole problem. Ya gotta let it go! At first it was categorized as being the "lottery ticket you'll never cash in" now fast forward to the 9nths decision. Look, nic's never ever going to happen. Yet before us is an opportunity to do better than nicolau did. And who better than the people whom do the job, understand the relevance of years of service, and the mandatory end of our careers. You have to go at 65-all of us. The mass leap frogging we see with nic creates a non obtainable situation for our west pilots...it's just not going to happen.

The best thing we can all do now is to take advantage of this do-over. Lets get this seniority integration to a place that we can all live with. That's the path that will allow all of us to be successful. Here's to getting this thing done in a professional and positive manner for all.

While I appreciate your sentiment, I have to question, what do you mean better than the Nic? Better for who? The mass leap frogging in the Nic? What leap frogging in the Nic? The east is ratioed into the Nic and has the top of the list, you all moved up. The only leap frogging proposal I have ever seen is the usapa DOH plan that would put your bottom people and furloughed pilots above 80% of the West pilot group. Yes we all have to retire by 65, and you are making grossly inaccurate assumptions about the demographics of the West pilot group.

I could as easily say DOH is the whole problem, ya got to let it go! It ain't going to happen. Everybody from the begining told the east you will not get DOH. Here is the list. Parker, Lakefield, the east merger committee, the West, Nicolau, Wake, a jury, Bybee, Graber, Tashira.

There is no do over. This is not a do over. It is called binding arbitration for a reason.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oh, I read the judgement - probably before you did. since I read it Friday afternoon eastern time I do have an advantage. With no dog in this fight, other than what I consider as fair, I can read it to see what it actually says, not to see if I can twist it to somehow say what I want it to say. You're stuck with the latter. You're right about one thing - the 9th didn't rule that the pilots would get a 50% pay raise any more than they ruled USAPA is free to use a DOH list.

Jim

Oh, I see. Now you're "Fair And Balanced". Makes sense now. The Sean Hannity of airline legal information.

 

[Black Swan]

Oh, I read the judgement - probably before you did. since I read it Friday afternoon eastern time I do have an advantage. With no dog in this fight, other than what I consider as fair, I can read it to see what it actually says, not to see if I can twist it to somehow say what I want it to say. You're stuck with the latter. You're right about one thing - the 9th didn't rule that the pilots would get a 50% pay raise any more than they ruled USAPA is free to use a DOH list.

Jim

No dog, an elephant would be more like it. You have been nothing but all in for the West since we wrecked ALPA.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

There is no do over. This is not a do over. It is called binding arbitration for a reason.

Yea, we get it. Like "til death do us part". No do overs after that, right? I'll wait for an answer until you can call your ex wife and ask her.

 

[Phoenix]

.... The east ... has the top of the list,....

Now USAPA is free to fix that, courtesy of your dues and the 9th.

Internal union dispute.

Majority vote ratifies a proposed solution.

Multiple factions of malcontents fund new lawsuits.

Reasonable, legitimate union objective is the standard.

Cheers.

 

[Phoenix]

No dog, an elephant would be more like it. You have been nothing but all in for the West since we wrecked ALPA.

Yeah. Ain't it great!! Its an easy azimuth to know if we are still on track.😛

 

[BoeingBoy]

No dog, an elephant would be more like it. You have been nothing but all in for the West since we wrecked ALPA.

Wrong - I was arguing that modified relative seniority was fair decades before you "wrecked" ALPA. And wrong again - to me it's not about East vs West but about what I think is fair vs unfair. You want to have East pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger leapfrog West 757 captains - talk about a windfall...

Jim

 

[AWE Dog]

Let me get this staight, You west guys think that anything less than the Nic is being harmed?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Wrong - I was arguing that modified relative seniority was fair decades before you "wrecked" ALPA. And wrong again - to me it's not about East vs West but about what I think is fair vs unfair. You want to have East pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger leapfrog West 757 captains - talk about a windfall...

Jim

I haven't seen that proposal, but I kinda like it.

Actually, there have been NO, ZERO, NADA, NONE proposals that would allow that. USAPA never proposed it, either. I doubt that even the East MEC ever proposed it, even early in the negotiations.

Yep, about as factual as Sean Hannity.

 

[nic4us]

And I guess it will not be any consideration if your little plan harms the East when you sue. Didn't think of that did you?

Now you are really going around in circles.

The difference is the West is suing to enforce something to which they legally have joint ownership. We are trying to give you what your deserve. The east on the other hand is trying to enforce what they think they deserve, (but quite obviously do not).

So yes I did think of that, and the West suing does not harm the east.

Here is what I propose for the short term. Stay focused when at work. Do your job well. Be courteous to your fellow pilots, both east and West, and the other employees you encounter. Keep the operation sucessful so that we can get the furloughs back, and secure our own future.

Good Night.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I haven't seen that proposal, but I kinda like it.

Actually, there have been NO, ZERO, NADA, NONE proposals that would allow that. USAPA never proposed it, either.

Actually USAPA's DOH with C&R's would theoretically allow that (and actually put the former East furloughed pilot ahead of some West 757 captains on the seniority list), but I was addressing Black Swan who has often mentioned a DOH integration.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Actually USAPA's DOH with C&R's would theoretically allow that (and actually put the former East furloughed pilot ahead of some West 757 captains on the seniority list), but I was addressing Black Swan who has often mentioned a DOH integration.

Jim

That's the sort of thing thr C&Rs prevent. To my knowledge USAPA or ALPA has NEVER introduced a methodology using straight DOH. That's why this entire line of thought is nuts.

No credible person, east or west, USAPA or ALPA, has EVER proposed using straight DOH.

 

[nic4us]

Yea, we get it. Like "til death do us part". No do overs after that, right? I'll wait for an answer until you can call your ex wife and ask her.

My wife is neither ex nor deceased.

Consider my seniority as the same. Nicolau did to your great regret.

sorry usapa, got to represent me fairly. Cannot take my seniority and give it to your furlough. Less you get sued and lose.

 

[nic4us]

Now USAPA is free to fix that, courtesy of your dues and the 9th.

Internal union dispute.

Majority vote ratifies a proposed solution.

Multiple factions of malcontents fund new lawsuits.

Reasonable, legitimate union objective is the standard.

Cheers.

I do not pay dues.

Free to fix it as long as the west is not harmed.

Company tells usapa nothing other than the Nic or a list that does not harm the West.

No new lawsuits, after years of seperate ops, loa 93, hundreds of east retirements, ratified contract containing Nic.

Cheers