US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oldiebutgoody]

My wife is neither ex nor deceased.

Consider my seniority as the same. Nicolau did to your great regret.

sorry usapa, got to represent me fairly. Cannot take my seniority and give it to your furlough. Less you get sued and lose.

Nobody wants "your" seniority, but we're not giving you ours either. You guys have had more than one chance to negotiate a solution. It's YOUR fault you're where you are, nobody else's.

 

[AWE Dog]

Wrong - I was arguing that modified relative seniority was fair decades before you "wrecked" ALPA. And wrong again - to me it's not about East vs West but about what I think is fair vs unfair. You want to have East pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger leapfrog West 757 captains - talk about a windfall...

Jim

Jim, Thats weak on your part. You know better than that.

 

[Phoenix]

That's the sort of thing thr C&Rs prevent. To my knowledge USAPA or ALPA has NEVER introduced a methodology using straight DOH. That's why this entire line of thought is nuts.

No credible person, east or west, USAPA or ALPA, has EVER proposed using straight DOH.

The folks that think USAPA is an abominable snowman out to eat Bambi have failed to really think things through.

ALPA did little more than extort allegiance to a third party that had no fear of ever being sued, and expected them to come up with a fair and equitable solution. They (ALPA and the hired three stooges) had signatures that absolved them from any suit if they failed to do so. There was zero down side for them no matter how badly they flubbed.

Now USAPA has sole authority to actually come up with a fair and equitable solution and has every expectation that a law suit (or multiple suits) will most assuredly be forthcoming, should they fail to ensure a fair and equitable solution for all pilots. The 9th has already said as much about USAPA's freedom and responsibility. The Paranoids now expect us to believe that somehow USAPA (under such responsibility and scrutiny, that ALPA never had) will now come up with something that plunders the pilots they represent.

There is rehab for ALPAholics, but they have to get past the denial first.

 

[pitchlow]

No it can't. Why don't you try telling that to the Delta/Northwest pilots. Not happy with your integration? Just negotiate a new one. 🙂

My point is Purely anecdotal. I have not read the Relative position based NWA/DL award. But I understand there are meaningful conditions and restrictions. A DC9 F/O told me that DOH loss in the extreme was 6 years and hundreds lost 4 years on a declining scale as a pilots neared the top. I cannot substantiate this as it was merely a conversation on my way to work. I have read the NIC though. It contains moot conditions and restrictions. and as much as 22 years of bidding power reduced to 5 as of 2010. DOH works with adjustments as does relative position. When neither works you have to get creative. The NIC award is unimaginative and sadly punitive to the East. If you don't realize that, well. there could be many reasons. But I won't go there. When you loose 22 years of bidding power without need pads something has gone wrong. I believe case law would back up my point of view. Reasonableness is not a complex concept.

 

[AWE Dog]

My wife is neither ex nor deceased.

Consider my seniority as the same. Nicolau did to your great regret.

sorry usapa, got to represent me fairly. Cannot take my seniority and give it to your furlough. Less you get sued and lose.

Nic, The problem is you really don't have any seniority and you want it given to you.

 

[Phoenix]

Nic, The problem is you really don't have any seniority and you want it given to you.

Says he doesn't pay dues. Probably furloughed. Light bulb on.

 

[BoeingBoy]

No credible person, east or west, USAPA or ALPA, has EVER proposed using straight DOH.

We agree about BS then. Again, though, USAPA's C&R's wouldn't theoretically prevent it. What would slow the process down considerably would be all the East F/O's between that furloughed pilot and that West 757 captain who would get the West 757 captain opening first, but eventually that East furloughed pilot could be a 757 captain senior to the West pilot who was a 757 captain at the time of the merger.

Jim

 

[Barrister]

Actually USAPA's DOH with C&R's would theoretically allow that (and actually put the former East furloughed pilot ahead of some West 757 captains on the seniority list), but I was addressing Black Swan who has often mentioned a DOH integration.

Jim

So...Oh wise one....if a U guy has 15 years, gets furloughed and then comes back after 2-4 years where should he come back.....junior to the 10 year 757 Capt...???????????

WELL????????

NPJB

 

[oldiebutgoody]

We agree about BS then. Again, though, USAPA's C&R's wouldn't theoretically prevent it. What would slow the process down considerably would be all the East F/O's between that furloughed pilot and that West 757 captain who would get the West 757 captain opening first, but eventually that East furloughed pilot could be a 757 captain senior to the West pilot who was a 757 captain at the time of the merger.

Jim

By that time, which pilot would have made more of an investment of their career in making the company successful? That's the pilot which should be more senior. Career expectations is an abstract, nonquantifiable concept. In this turbulent industry, who really has ANY idea of what the future holds?

How about this? Lets allocate positions with the company by which city pairs were flown prior to the merger, then split all the new ones, 1/3 to 2/3rds, due to the relative number of pilots and airplanes coming from each side? What do you think?
I'll bet half the remaining west guys would be gone if we did it that way.

 

[Richard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

In light of the developments of the past few days, we have given you tremendous latitude with your posting in this thread...but you REALLY need to get back on track to observing the rules of the board--specifically NO PERSONAL COMMENTS REMARKS INSULTS OR NAME CALLING.

You can comment ALL you want about the ISSUES, but you may NOT make comments about specific posters......

Again, we have allowed you some latitude over the past couple of days, but from here on posts which violate the rules will be DELETED without comment, and suspensions will be issued as appropriate.

We realize this is an emotional issue and that many of you are very passionate about your side's position, however, we cannot allow the personal attacks, comments and name calling to continue. It contributes nothing to the discussion of the issues, and it doesn't help anyone's respective position.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

 

[nic4us]

Nobody wants "your" seniority, but we're not giving you ours either. You guys have had more than one chance to negotiate a solution. It's YOUR fault you're where you are, nobody else's.

Yes and we take full responsibility for our actions, try it some time, people might take you seriously once you do.

As to the seniority, you do not have to give us yours, we are not asking for it, we do not need it, we have our own, it was combined with yours to come up with the Nic. You have spent the last three years stealing West seniority and jobs, and I think it bothers you when I point it out.

We do not negotiate with untrustworthy, reneging, backstabbing, parties who's word is no good in person or on paper, and that is YOUR fault.

 

[nic4us]

Nic, The problem is you really don't have any seniority and you want it given to you.

Spoken like a true east pilot, usapian.

You know nothing other than I am a West line holding a320 captain, making more money than my counter part on the east, but you are certain I "really don't have any seniority".

Yeah, I see the problem now!

 

[RSVP767]

............I also believe that the Nic is here to stay, as Parker publicly accepted it. He''s probably at home now trying to figure out how to tell you guys this and calculating the cost of another childish meltdown. He's a numbers guy after all. He'll work it out.

LOL!!! Oh really? YGTBSM. So why didn't Parker tell this to the West before they waisted everyones time and money on litigation? After all, he accepted 'the list' well before this whole charade began. Why didn't he just tell everyone......East, West, USAPA, Wake, the jury, the 9th......the World......"Hey everyone, I've accepted 'the list'.... SO IT SHALL BE!

What Parker did was accept 'a list' that met the company's criteria. He accepted 'a list' that was a result of the previous CBA's process. He accepted 'a list' that was proposed (that's right, a proposal) to be the list under ALPA. The list Parker accepted was the proposed list from the prior CBA that was sitting on his shelf waiting to be implemented. Problem was, he couldn't quite impliment that proposed list as it was not yet part of a ratified contract.

USAPA changes all of that! And, the 9th has effectively affirmed that USAPA, as the current CBA, has the right to come up with another 'proposal'......a fair proposal that will be implemented when it is ratified by the majority of the MIGS. If some deem it unfair at that point......go ahead, find another court, another judge, and write another check to challenge it.

Damn, if Parker would have just spoken up sooner and let everyone know the power he wielded over the NIC we could have saved millions and you would have your blessed NIC! LOL!!!

 

[RSVP767]

No it can't. Why don't you try telling that to the Delta/Northwest pilots. Not happy with your integration? Just negotiate a new one. 🙂

Yes, our's can. DL/NW is done........already incorporated into a ratified agreement. In case you haven't noticed we're not there yet.

 

[Heretic]

"Oh, I read the judgement - probably before you did. since I read it Friday afternoon eastern time I do have an advantage. With no dog in this fight, other than what I consider as fair, "
Jim

Jim.
Let's be honest. You have a considerable, personal dog in this fight. I will grant you, your dog has quite the pedigree..

HS