US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/29-10/7

[USA320Pilot]

Freighterguynow,

It appears USAPA is throwing the furloughees under the bus.

On September 23, 2009 USAPA president Mike Cleary sent a letter to the NMB Chairman Elizabeth Dougherty asking the NMB to permit employee groups to "choose union representation based on a majority of votes cast rather than by a majority of eligible members of the craft or class." With many furloughees finding permanent jobs at other company's they will likely not vote in an Representation Election that is now being orgbanized for US Airways' pilots and only active pilots will be involved in the process if USAPA's position is accepted by the NMB.

Furthermore, Cleary punched the NMB in the nose in his letter when he said, "This discriminatory standard is compounded by the NMB’s laissez-faire approach to retaliatory actions taken against employees striving for a collective voice." I just bet the Board loved Cleary stating the NMB takes a "laissez-faire approach."

Why does USAPA and its president continue to publicly try to embarass people they're asking something from? I simply do not get it...this might feel good to some, but this sentiment or approach keeps hurting the pilot group over-and-over again.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Arrogance and stupidity, what an awesome combination of attributes. Usapa appears to have both in spades.

 

[cynic]

Why does USAPA and its president continue to publicly try to embarass people they're asking something from?

Because:
A. They feel that everyone is beneath them
B. They feel that their opinion is the only one that matters

Reading many of the posts in this site should convince you of that.

 

[cleardirect]

Anybody that thinks that mergers save money, especially short term, is nuts! Also, the Ninth will be hearing and deciding the Nic case LONG before any combination of employees could occur. Then the list passed to the NMB for the Allegheny-Mohawk arbitration now required by law will be USAPA's original list. It's important that Judge Wake's ruling be heard, due to it's rewriting of major labor laws, so even ALPA wants this thing to go to the ninth asap.

I want to be clear in my understanding. When you say "will be usapa's original list" What list are you talking about?

The DOH list with C&R. The DOH no C&R. The Nicolau list now required by injunction. Which list are you talking about?

One more thing. The ninth is not deciding the Nicolau case. They are deciding the Addington case. The ninth does not care or have athority over the Nicolau list or arbitration.

 

[luvn737s]

Why, in a union that touts it's democratic principles, is so little polling of the members done? Why aren't the pilots asked if they support a position that changes the way elections are held? Why are they not continually polling pilots about their desires in a contract? Why not ask the pilots if they want their money wasted on dead-end appeals and company cars? Cleary is a President, not a King, right?

This union is pleading(ok, stomping around and demanding) for credibility and relevance, yet does nothing to help earn either.

 

[hp_fa]

Olide you make a good point about Judge Wake and the Ninth Circuit rewriting major labor laws. I have talked to a couple of labor attonreys with knowldege of the Addngtin case and USAPA is becoming famous among labor law firms for presenting difficult cases that lawyers feel makes bad law. Apparently, of paramount concern is that with Judge Wake's ruling the courts will now be able to interfere with the collective bargaining process and negotiations. I believe USAPA fought the wrong battle in Addington when they tried to defend something that was indefensible. Now it has got turned against USAPA and the whole union movement.

Maybe HP_FA can shed more light on this.

As of now I am not concerned about an overbroad ruling, but that can change. While the adage you stated elsewhere in your post is correct, that bad facts make for bad law, the case can possibly be decided without opening up any cans or worms for future disputes of this nature. That decision will rest with the 9th Circuit as to how they decide the matter and how far they take any principles they care to address. Heck, the 9th Circuit could possibly make a Memorandum Decision which would resolve this case but not become legal precedent for other cases. For now we wait and see. (My personal guess is that it will be a published decision.)

You can see where this is going and why labor firms are upset. Attorneys could now ask the courts to intercede in collective bargaining negotiations based on Addington.

Actually, as of now, I don't see this threat. Feel free to add to the theory so maybe I understand what basis you believe this might occur, but for now I am neither convinced nor concerned.

Separately, everybody I know that has followed Addington is astonished that USAPA continues to punch Judge Wake in the mouth. Why would USAPA do that over-and-over again? For example, USAPA's seven volume appeal submission, point four said:

"Fourth, the trial was unfair in several respects, in particular because the jury instructions so badly misstated law that it compelled an unfair verdict and because Judge Wake was biased."

USAPA filed their press release with this attack,"the Judge is biased" theory and now have put it on the legal record. I think it is crazy for people to unsult a person, but you simply do not call a federal Judge "biased" especially when he is yet to rule on the attorney fees and has a damages trial against you scheduled in his court. it is incredibly stupid to question a judge's integrity before he has fully ruled. but that is USAPA's Mode of Pperation that continues to fail the pilots.

I agree with this. USAPA's counsel could have simply claimed the court erred in its various ruling, findings and conclusions. Instead they opted to call the Court biased and I don't think that does them any good in the long run. For an example instead saying "the trial was unfair", they could have substituted "the trial was flawed" and made the same point without personally calling out a federal judge. Like I said, I don't think this served them well.

We'll see what happens.

 

[luvn737s]

Is it even worth wondering what a real union might have done to preserve the E-190 pilot's jobs? Does the company even bother negotiating with The Goon Squad?

 

[nic4us]

Also, the Ninth will be hearing and deciding the Nic case LONG before any combination of employees could occur. Then the list passed to the NMB for the Allegheny-Mohawk arbitration now required by law will be USAPA's original list. It's important that Judge Wake's ruling be heard, due to it's rewriting of major labor laws, so even ALPA wants this thing to go to the ninth asap.

Right now as we post, the Nic list is the official seniority list for USAirways. It has been determined by arbitration, according to ALPA merger policy, and has been accepted by the company.

I suppose you mean if usapa prevails then their original list would be passed, and we still do not know if it could be used. If the 9th upholds addington, or prior to a decision, usapa has no other list and is currently under injunction to use the Nic for all negotiations.

Also, absolutely no labor law has been changed by judge Wake. I defy you to name one, rather than just claim it is so.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

usapa has no other list and is currently under injunction to use the Nic for all negotiations.

If you read the injunction it only applies to negotiations with the "company", not another union.

 

[SegmentKing]

How many pilots are going to get laid off, again, when USAirways sells the Embraers (again!) to Republic?

 

[HPDriver]

How many pilots are going to get laid off, again, when USAirways sells the Embraers (again!) to Republic?

About 100 to 120.

 

[SegmentKing]

Of those 100 - 120, I wonder how many of them:

1. Flew the 170
2. How many times they've been laid off from Airways
3. How quickly they get out of this business & forget the airlines!!

 

[Freighterguynow]

Freighterguynow,

It appears USAPA is throwing the furloughees under the bus.

On September 23, 2009 USAPA.....
Regards,

USA320Pilot

An answer to a question only you are asking.

My post was

"I disagree. When the United pilots discover the Nic award places the bottom - and furloughed - AWA pilot 2500 numbers up their list ( and remainder slotted above that ) the logjam will only pile that much higher."

Perhaps you can reply specifically as to how the UAL will embrace this and break the log jam you speak of?

 

[flybynite]

About 100 to 120.

I'm thinking maybe 80........

 

[HPDriver]

I'm thinking maybe 80........

Nope.

I went of a staffing of 10-12 pilots per aircraft.

I'm not the only one:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10606757/1/...s-jet-sale.html