US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/29-10/7

[Waketurbulence]

I don't think it will be long before they announce a sale of the remaining 15. Why would they keep such a small fleet...they won't.

Next, I think the wholly owned regional's will be sold. With all the sub-contracted lift available, and the only way to cut more capacity and expenses, why would they keep them?

I hope I'm wrong but the company is building up cash reserves, getting rid of un-profitable flying, and lowering head count for what may be another merger...

 

[HPDriver]

I hope I'm wrong but the company is building up cash reserves, getting rid of un-profitable flying, and lowering head count for what may be another merger...

Ding, ding, ding!!!

Spot on.

 

[BoeingBoy]

My post was

"I disagree. When the United pilots discover the Nic award places the bottom - and furloughed - AWA pilot 2500 numbers up their list ( and remainder slotted above that ) the logjam will only pile that much higher."

I don't know what assumptions you're using to come up with the conclusion that the bottom West pilot would merge in about the middle of UA's list, but it's way too early to be reading those tea leaves. First there has to be a merger announcement, then negotiations between the UA and US merger committees followed by arbitration if necessary. The fact base for a UA/US merger is very different from US/HP - UA has lots of widebodies (about 1/3 of it's fleet) while widebodies will represent about 10% of the US fleet at the end of next year (and US has smallish widebodies compared to half of UA's widebodies). That alone could put a lot of UA people at the top of the captain and f/o slots on a combined list. I could envision only a relative handful of US pilots in the top 1/2 of any conbined UA/US list.

Jim

 

[HPDriver]

I don't know what assumptions you're using to come up with the conclusion that the bottom West pilot would merge in about the middle of UA's list, but it's way too early to be reading those tea leaves. First there has to be a merger announcement, then negotiations between the UA and US merger committees followed by arbitration if necessary. The fact base for a UA/US merger is very different from US/HP - UA has lots of widebodies (about 1/3 of it's fleet) while widebodies will represent about 10% of the US fleet at the end of next year (and US has smallish widebodies compared to half of UA's widebodies). That alone could put a lot of UA people at the top of the captain and f/o slots on a combined list. I could envision only a relative handful of US pilots in the top 1/2 of any conbined UA/US list.

Jim

We'll see a blended list using the Nic award and UAL that includes fences.

 

[Dorf]

Is it even worth wondering what a real union might have done to preserve the E-190 pilot's jobs? Does the company even bother negotiating with The Goon Squad?

Do you mean a real union like ALPA who has thrown the junior pilot under the bus since shortly after its inception? The same real union which the west pilots were trying to also throw off the property several years ago?

I don't agree with the way the "new" union appears to be doing things, but it seems just about every airline pilot union is about the same in the long run...the junior pilots are expendable. The one thing I do respect the west pilots for is ...they at least tried to protect even the most junior pilot on the list..thereby protecting all above that pilot.

Dorf

 

[aquagreen73s]

I don't agree with the way the "new" union appears to be doing things, but it seems just about every airline pilot union is about the same in the long run...the junior pilots are expendable. The one thing I do respect the west pilots for is ...they at least tried to protect even the most junior pilot on the list..thereby protecting all above that pilot.

You just stated the essence of the legal campaign perfectly, which also reflects the arbitration strategy. Pilots from all seniority brackets made the legal campaign fly. It's very unfortunate that the older East refused to come off their DOH stance and argue a compelling argument such as longevity. That would have helped their youngest and most junior, but I suppose that can never be a consideration for the angry F/Os who want everything that they think they are entitled to, and for themselves only. Now those junior East pilots are going to be hitting the street again and that is so tragic - had there been a joint contract then nobody would who was a CEL pilot or above would be getting furloughed even with all 25 EMBs going away. (That's based on the improved scheduling that the COMPANY has on the table.)

There's a lesson in all of this . . .

 

[boeingplt]

We'll see a blended list using the Nic award and UAL that includes fences.

I've got news for you dude, any seniority list integration would involve "THE" Seniority Lists respectively as defined in the respective CBAs, none of which are Nic. Wake's order has only to do with negotiating our own CBA and nothing to do with any integration that may happen before that is done.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I don't know what assumptions you're using to come up with the conclusion that the bottom West pilot would merge in about the middle of UA's list,
Jim

Well, using the Nic rationale the 1500 United pilots on furlough go to the bottom of the combined list.

There are 742 active East pilots on the Dec alignment junior to "Save Dave".

So, United is showing 6478 total pilots while US Airways is 5275 - roughly 20% larger.

742 X 1.2 = 890 United pilots needed junior to Davie in order to maintain his relative position merger percentile.

Resulting in 1500 + 890 = 2390

According my buddy at UAL ( and this was just off the top of his head so take it with a grain of salt) , after the 1500 furloughs the most junior UAL pilot has an 06/1999 hire date. Moving up another 890 numbers we are looking at (roughly) 1995 active UAL blended with 2005 furloughed AWA.

October 1996 is the junior UAL Captain ( A320 SFO ).

Best of luck with that log jam.

 

[HPDriver]

I've got news for you dude, any seniority list integration would involve "THE" Seniority Lists respectively as defined in the respective CBAs, none of which are Nic. Wake's order has only to do with negotiating our own CBA and nothing to do with any integration that may happen before that is done.

Dude,

You are completely wrong.

The Nic list will be the list used to integrate our pilot group with another group.

That is a fact.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The Nic list will be the list used to integrate our pilot group with another group.

That is a fact.

Given the inability of USAPA's counsel to articulate a single argument to the 9th Circuit, it's just a matter of time.

 

[BLT]

I've got news for you dude, any seniority list integration would involve "THE" Seniority Lists respectively as defined in the respective CBAs, none of which are Nic. Wake's order has only to do with negotiating our own CBA and nothing to do with any integration that may happen before that is done.

That's wishful thinking.

 

[Metroyet]

That's wishful thinking.

Exactly. After USAPA got booted by a combined UAL rep. vote, ALPA would once again be the CBA. It's crystal clear what ALPA has to do with the NIC.

The NIC doesn't just "go away" like so many on the East have been led to believe.

 

[electricjet98]

I've got news for you dude, any seniority list integration would involve "THE" Seniority Lists respectively as defined in the respective CBAs, none of which are Nic. Wake's order has only to do with negotiating our own CBA and nothing to do with any integration that may happen before that is done.

Judge Wake maintains his jurisdiction over the injunction and has the full ability to amend it as needed. Since he has already required that USAPA use the Nic in any negotiations with the company, do you really think that he wouldn't also require USAPA to use the Nic in any negotiations with another pilot group...I mean really?

 

[cleardirect]

Well, using the Nic rationale the 1500 United pilots on furlough go to the bottom of the combined list.

There are 742 active East pilots on the Dec alignment junior to "Save Dave".

So, United is showing 6478 total pilots while US Airways is 5275 - roughly 20% larger.

742 X 1.2 = 890 United pilots needed junior to Davie in order to maintain his relative position merger percentile.

Resulting in 1500 + 890 = 2390

According my buddy at UAL ( and this was just off the top of his head so take it with a grain of salt) , after the 1500 furloughs the most junior UAL pilot has an 06/1999 hire date. Moving up another 890 numbers we are looking at (roughly) 1995 active UAL blended with 2005 furloughed AWA.

October 1996 is the junior UAL Captain ( A320 SFO ).

Best of luck with that log jam.

What makes you think that the next merger will be done the same way? In the words of Nicolau. Each merger turns on its own facts. Maybe it is the same maybe not.

We currently have 225 pilots. According to your math 4%. UAL has 1500 or 23%. Just those numbers if the next arbitrator places the furloughs below the active put a huge number below US Airways pilots. If the same protection of WB happens. A large number of UAL pilots get placed on the top of the list. Which means that the rest of us get ratioed in at some rate.

Even assuming that the next one goes similar to Nicolau. A 2005 hire is not or even close to being a captain. So they would not be placed next to them as “relativeâ€￾ position. So the entire premise is false that a UAL 1995 captain would be relative to a 2005 AWA pilots.

Fear only works when the facts are not known.

Look at the Nicolau list. A junior east f/o is next to a junior west f/o. A junior east captain is next to a junior west captain. That is relative.

 

[electricjet98]

We currently have 225 pilots. According to your math 4%. UAL has 1500 or 23%. Just those numbers if the next arbitrator places the furloughs below the active put a huge number below US Airways pilots. If the same protection of WB happens. A large number of UAL pilots get placed on the top of the list. Which means that the rest of us get ratioed in at some rate.

I think the furloughed west pilots that are senior to the most junior pre-merger east pilot currently working, would be considered a working pilot, rather than a furloughed pilot. If the west furloughed pilots are senior on the Nic Award to anyone currently working on the east, they would remain senior on the new list.