US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/29-10/7

[Itestwell]

Well, it looks like Sully's LGA-CLT "first flight" hoopla was a PR stunt and factually incorrect to boot. I'm not counting the training flights against anyone, but the fact that the real first flight was CLT-LGA made the US Airways publicity incorrect. They could have at least put an additional pilot on the pairing to fly CLT-LGA so the PR machine would not have been factually incorrect, but they didn't and ended up with press releases that were lies.



Link

I'm confused. Sully/ Skiles didn't fly the CLT- LGA flight that preceded their LGA- CLT segment, according to catcrew.

 

[N924PS]

Not knowing what the US FOM looks like, but was sully down long enough that he would've had to have flown IOE again?

Realistically, it's probably his 5th or 6th flight. Don't ruin the fun.

I don't think a full OE was necessary in Sully's instance.

He has only been off the line since 15 JAN 09. Just a couple of sims where he could have completed the 3 Takeoff/Landing currency requirement.

Sully may have been due for a line check, which could be flown with a regular line F/O with the Check Airman in the jumpseat.

Not sure what, if anything, special the Feds require from a crew returning from an accident or incident.

 

[hp_fa]

I'm confused. Sully/ Skiles didn't fly the CLT- LGA flight that preceded their LGA- CLT segment, according to catcrew.

According to the paper they did and it appears that the PR person backpedaled when asked about the discrepancy.

 

[ManDachine]

Oh Christ...you were probably pissed when the first flight tookoff after September 11th because there was a discrepancy in flight numbers. Get a life already, there is more to this world then USAviation.com!!!

 

[hp_fa]

Oh Christ...you were probably pissed when the first flight tookoff after September 11th because there was a discrepancy in flight numbers. Get a life already, there is more to this world then USAviation.com!!!

You mean the flight I worked to LAS? (If it wasn't first it was one of the first three.)

 

[Itestwell]

According to the paper they did and it appears that the PR person backpedaled when asked about the discrepancy.

I am sure that if they flew the CLT- LGA flight, they would show up in the computer. But go ahead and believe the paper and some PR guy. 🙄

And I have to ask, do you REALLY care? Nothing more pressing going on around here?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Sully and Jeff's first flight was flight # 1050 from CLT-LGA that departed 10 minutes early at 7:45 am in aircraft 704. Upon arrival in LGA they held their press conference and then returned to CLT on flight # 1427 in aircraft 749 that departed 7 minutes early at 12:52 pm.

The CLT departure was filmed by US Airways personnel when the two pilots entered the jetway, on the jetway, and then onboard the aircraft.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

To shift gears I wanted to make a post on the rumored United-US Airways merger before the topic was closed, but the comment is somewhat related to the pilot labor dispute so I thought I would comment here.

I believe Doug Parker's primary merger motivation is economic, e.g. an ability to reduce capacity, rationalize operations, increase revenue, cut costs, and seek economies of scale.

However, another hidden corporate benefit would be an avenue for management to break the East/West pilot logjam. With the current East/West pilot court battle and the recent effort to begin preparations to elect a new union to replace USAPA, management has no control of the process, it cannot obtain a joint contract, and it cannot complete one of the last two US Airways- America West merger integration steps.

However, if US Airways merges with a larger carrier such as American, United, or Continental than I believe USAPA would likely be replaced as the collective bargaining agent.

For example, if US Airways merges with United the NMB would be required by law to hold a Representation Election and I believe the West pilots, some East pilots, and the United pilots would band together to elect ALPA over USAPA as the combined pilot group's union.

Once this occurs all legal action in regard to the Nicolau Award would cease because USAPA would no longer be a party to the lawsuit. Thus, I believe Addington decision would become law and the Nicolau Award would be implemented breaking the logjam.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

I am sure that if they flew the CLT- LGA flight, they would show up in the computer.

Well after USA320Pilot's post do you wish to revise your thoughts on this?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

To shift gears I wanted to make a post on the rumored United-US Airways merger before it was closed, but the comment is somewhat related to the pilot labor dispute so I thought I would comment here.

I believe Doug Parker's primary merger motivation is economic, e.g. an ability to reduce capacity, rationalize operations, increase revenue, cut costs, and seek economies of scale.

However, another hidden corporate benefit would be an avenue for management to break the East/West pilot logjam. With the current East/West pilot court battle and the recent effort to begin preparations to elect a new union to replace USAPA, management has no control of the process, it cannot obtain a joint contract, and it cannot complete one of the last two US Airways- America West merger integration steps.

However, if US Airways merges with a larger carrier such as American, United, or Continental than I believe USAPA would likely be replaced as the collective bargaining agent.

For example, if US Airways merges with United the NMB would be required by law to hold a Representation Election and I believe the West pilots, some East pilots, and the United pilots would band together to elect ALPA over USAPA as the combined pilot group's union.

Once this occurs all legal action in regard to the Nicolau Award would cease because USAPA would no longer be a party to the lawsuit. Thus, I believe Addington decision would become law and the Nicolau Award would be implemented breaking the logjam.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I don't think he cares about the so called log jam. He's saving a ton of money, and the doors are slowly closing in on those responsible for the logjam anyway. People say he is enjoying it, I think he's just yawning or shaking his head, if he even thinks about it that much.

 

[ClueByFour]

US/UA offers very little chance for capacity reduction outside of Chapter 11. US/HP have minimum fleet counts, UA has a minimum block-hour provision.

 

[boeingplt]

For example, if US Airways merges with United the NMB would be required by law to hold a Representation Election and I believe the West pilots, some East pilots, and the United pilots would band together to elect ALPA over USAPA as the combined pilot group's union.

Once this occurs all legal action in regard to the Nicolau Award would cease because USAPA would no longer be a party to the lawsuit. Thus, I believe Addington decision would become law and the Nicolau Award would be implemented breaking the logjam.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

DELETED BY MODERATOR USA320, I don't think you are reasoning this all of the way through. If it is United those pilots are going to have to have some of AAA pilots senior to them, yes? And along with their choice of which faction to support - east or west, indirectly through their CBA decision, which group do they choose to have ahead of them on the list?

I'll give you a hint; The average east pilot is fifteen years older than the average west pilot. Go!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Anybody that thinks that mergers save money, especially short term, is nuts! Also, the Ninth will be hearing and deciding the Nic case LONG before any combination of employees could occur. Then the list passed to the NMB for the Allegheny-Mohawk arbitration now required by law will be USAPA's original list. It's important that Judge Wake's ruling be heard, due to it's rewriting of major labor laws, so even ALPA wants this thing to go to the ninth asap.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Oldie,

Oldie said: " It's important that Judge Wake's ruling be heard, due to it's rewriting of major labor laws, so even ALPA wants this thing to go to the ninth asap."

USA320Pilot comments: Olide you make a good point about Judge Wake and the Ninth Circuit rewriting major labor laws. I have talked to a couple of labor attonreys with knowldege of the Addngtin case and USAPA is becoming famous among labor law firms for presenting difficult cases that lawyers feel makes bad law. Apparently, of paramount concern is that with Judge Wake's ruling the courts will now be able to interfere with the collective bargaining process and negotiations. I believe USAPA fought the wrong battle in Addington when they tried to defend something that was indefensible. Now it has got turned against USAPA and the whole union movement.

Maybe HP_FA can shed more light on this.

Here is how the theory goes: USAPA seems to have changed their approach in arguing their theory that a DOH seniority list was merely a part to be negotiated in collective bargaining for a contract, which is similar to pay, working conditions, duty rigs, benefits, etc. For example, a section of the contract that can be bargained for improvements in other areas. They instead argued that it is an inherent right of a new union to disavow a previously agreed to seniority list per the Rakestraw v. United Air Lines, Inc., 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992). Judge Wake would have none of this, and differentiated the cases. And said, the only question here are the plaintiffs fairly represented by USAPA. The juries' answer, "they are not, therefore a DFR violation." I believe Judge Wake's court will withstand the appeal and Addington will be law. You can see where this is going and why labor firms are upset. Attorneys could now ask the courts to intercede in collective bargaining negotiations based on Addington. Bad cases make bad law.

Separately, everybody I know that has followed Addington is astonished that USAPA continues to punch Judge Wake in the mouth. Why would USAPA do that over-and-over again? For example, USAPA's seven volume appeal submission, point four said:

"Fourth, the trial was unfair in several respects, in particular because the jury instructions so badly misstated law that it compelled an unfair verdict and because Judge Wake was biased."

USAPA filed their press release with this attack,"the Judge is biased" theory and now have put it on the legal record. I think it is crazy for people to unsult a person, but you simply do not call a federal Judge "biased" especially when he is yet to rule on the attorney fees and has a damages trial against you scheduled in his court. it is incredibly stupid to question a judge's integrity before he has fully ruled. but that is USAPA's Mode of Pperation that continues to fail the pilots.

History shows USAPA's leaders always take the approach of pointing the finger at others snd publicly insulting people (for example management in the feul debate) they are asking for help. I believe it serves not useful purpose to publicly insult a federal judge or Doug Parker and then expect them to help you.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Freighterguynow]

I believe the West pilots, some East pilots, and the United pilots would band together to elect ALPA over USAPA as the combined pilot group's union.

Once this occurs all legal action in regard to the Nicolau Award would cease because USAPA would no longer be a party to the lawsuit. Thus, I believe Addington decision would become law and the Nicolau Award would be implemented breaking the logjam.

I disagree. When the United pilots discover the Nic award places the bottom - and furloughed - AWA pilot 2500 numbers up their list ( and remainder slotted above that ) the logjam will only pile that much higher.