US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Very good points. The court cannot "impose" the Nic since it's use requires a ratified contract. The company AND the Ninth circuit have BOTH admitted publicly that the east, which remains the majority, will NEVER ratify a contract that contains it. Therefore, I cannot see Judge Silver rulng any way other than that USAPA can negotiate the contract, including seniority, per the RLA, or dismiss the case, since the district court really has little jurisdiction in an RLA case. No matter what she rules, other than a dismissal, this case is again going to the ninth. We've seen a glimpse of what is coming when they get it again. That's why the only conclusion to come to is that the JD case brought about by the company is a frivolous action meant ONLY to stretch this thing out as long as possible.

But that is what you guys want right? To stretch out neg as long as possible. No Nicolau and separate ops. Well Parker is giving you just what you want. Separate ops, except that includes no contract. Die on LOA 93 boys and girls. You guys are getting exactly what you want. A union that told you that you would not have to live under the Nicolau. Best money you guys ever spent is what some of you say. To bad that means no contract. I believe judge Wake also said that during the trial.

You guys wanted separate ops you got it. Because of the east actions we are 2-4 probably closer to 5 years before we get a contract. Should I use a line from the east arbitration? The west is comfortable in our position. Other than a small raise and a little retirement money the next contract if usapa can pull it off will be a consession so why would we even want a contract neg by usapa? It will be less than what we have.

Get used to it. If DOH is in a contract the west will NEVER support a contract.


Since there is no data or evidence that a contract with the Nicolau will not pass other than the word of east pilot (and we all know what that is worth) we don't know if it would pass or not.

Beside the company DJ is all a waste of time right. You guys are going to get snap back. The company has to pay it because it is arbitration right. Then you guys are going to stall or walk away from the table because you got what you wanted right. Then we can watch as the east works to get the west parity. After 2.5 years usapa has failed to get the east parity. (Oh I guess just another item to throw on the failure pile of usapa)

I heard a great joke yesterday.

East pilots.

Everybody laughed.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...Get used to it. If DOH is in a contract the west will NEVER support a contract....

Here's the point you apparently missed. As far as the contract is concerned, there is no "East" or "West", only a Majority and Minority. Even if 100% of the West pilots vote down DOH, you STILL get outnumbered by 2 to 1. I'll even concede to you some of the disgruntled East ALPAphiles, many that haven't agreed with DOH since it was used in the PI merger, some 22+ years ago. DOH STILL WINS, BIGTIME.

You LOSE! No Nic! Sucks that you couldn't steal your way to the top. Looks like you'll have to work for it like everyone else.

 

[AvgJoe]

True, we don't KNOW that a TA would fail, but, I think most of us agree that those currently in power in USAPA would not be in favor of a Nic based TA. I would expect to see some provisions in the TA that would be distasteful to the top 500.

That's, ok, I'll take an upgrade over west parity thank you.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

True, we don't KNOW that a TA would fail, but, I think most of us agree that those currently in power in USAPA would not be in favor of a Nic based TA. I would expect to see some provisions in the TA that would be distasteful to the top 500.

That's, ok, I'll take an upgrade over west parity thank you.

Actually, I disagree. I think we do know that a TA including the Nic would fail. It wouldn't even be close.

There are so few of that 500 left already that it wouldn't really matter, as far as numbers go. But, all of those that I have talked with are firmly in the East camp. They know what's fair and what's not. I give them a lot of credit for that.

 

[AvgJoe]

Actually, I disagree. I think we do know that a TA including the Nic would fail. It wouldn't even be close.

There are so few of that 500 left already that it wouldn't really matter, as far as numbers go. But, all of those that I have talked with are firmly in the East camp. They know what's fair and what's not. I give them a lot of credit for that.

You may very well be right. Certainly I would vote against it, as would the majority of those in my seniority bracket, but then again, I'm not in the top 500. I have no idea which way they will vote. I only know that they have less to lose and more to gain from a new contract if Nic is involved.

 

[cleardirect]

Here's the point you apparently missed. As far as the contract is concerned, there is no "East" or "West", only a Majority and Minority. Even if 100% of the West pilots vote down DOH, you STILL get outnumbered by 2 to 1. I'll even concede to you some of the disgruntled East ALPAphiles, many that haven't agreed with DOH since it was used in the PI merger, some 22+ years ago. DOH STILL WINS, BIGTIME.

You LOSE! No Nic! Sucks that you couldn't steal your way to the top. Looks like you'll have to work for it like everyone else.

But there sure are a lot of east guys wanting the west to help you get a contract. You guys can wander around in your circle jerks at the airport thinking that you are accomplishing something. The west will stay out of it. You guys have the majority. So when is your majority going to deliver you that contract?

Sure the east majority may vote for a DOH contract. What you are missing is the company may not offer or be allowed to offer a DOH contract. But even if you do some how manage to get a DOH contract. DFR II happens. That does not require a majority.

Something else that you happen to be missing is before we get a contract there is going to have to be a strike vote. That majority is a little more questionable. Are you comfortable getting 50%+1? Would a strike vote pass?

Something else to remember. In the next merger are you still going to scream majority rules? DAL,UAL,AA all bigger than we are. So when they say majority rules, staple us air are there right? Can they do that? I guess according to you they can.

 

[LSS]

Things that make you go hmmmm... I'm wondering if the Goat Shoap Video creator has ever joined us on this message board.

Hummm.... is right... I have the sneaking suspicion that Mr. Goat Shoap Video creator is none other than AWA320... His writings are very similar to that individual who posted on the ALPA boards...

 

[crazystnic]

But that is what you guys want right? To stretch out neg as long as possible. No Nicolau and separate ops. Well Parker is giving you just what you want. Separate ops, except that includes no contract. Die on LOA 93 boys and girls. You guys are getting exactly what you want. A union that told you that you would not have to live under the Nicolau. Best money you guys ever spent is what some of you say. To bad that means no contract. I believe judge Wake also said that during the trial.

You guys wanted separate ops you got it. Because of the east actions we are 2-4 probably closer to 5 years before we get a contract. Should I use a line from the east arbitration? The west is comfortable in our position. Other than a small raise and a little retirement money the next contract if usapa can pull it off will be a consession so why would we even want a contract neg by usapa? It will be less than what we have.

Get used to it. If DOH is in a contract the west will NEVER support a contract.


Since there is no data or evidence that a contract with the Nicolau will not pass other than the word of east pilot (and we all know what that is worth) we don't know if it would pass or not.

Beside the company DJ is all a waste of time right. You guys are going to get snap back. The company has to pay it because it is arbitration right. Then you guys are going to stall or walk away from the table because you got what you wanted right. Then we can watch as the east works to get the west parity. After 2.5 years usapa has failed to get the east parity. (Oh I guess just another item to throw on the failure pile of usapa)

I heard a great joke yesterday.

East pilots.

Everybody laughed.

*********************************
LOA 93 is better than the NIC... said it before, you keep asking.. saying it again.
we are not voting for anything that contains the NIC< unless it's the NIC wiht CR's or some other comprimise..... that your side does not want to consider

 

[Pi brat]

I heard a great joke yesterday.

East pilots.

Everybody laughed.

Yeah, you guys are really laughing. I bet the AFO, west division, has to have weekly meetings to make sure all the anger gets vented.

I've accepted that this will probably go on for 3-5 years, absent some unseen circumstance. I'm okay with that, you?

 

[cleardirect]

*********************************
LOA 93 is better than the NIC... said it before, you keep asking.. saying it again.
we are not voting for anything that contains the NIC< unless it's the NIC wiht CR's or some other comprimise..... that your side does not want to consider

Than enjoy LOA 93.

USAPA could really save some money. Just dismantle the NAC since they are useless anyway and until the seniority is settled they are wasting time and money.

 

[Pi brat]

...

AWA320

You never answered my question. Is that Calvin in your avatar? Do you know how Watterson feels about that? Is that integrity?

 

[mikey60]

[leThe S.S. Leonidas is about to have the same fate as the Titanic, U864 and the S.S.Minnow GLUMP, GLUMP. The water is up to the wheelhouse on the Leonidas

and the rats are jumping into the water, wake up boys the water is cold and deep...USAPA may throw you a line but it won't have a nic on it...ft][/left]

 

[oldiebutgoody]

But there sure are a lot of east guys wanting the west to help you get a contract. You guys can wander around in your circle jerks at the airport thinking that you are accomplishing something. The west will stay out of it. You guys have the majority. So when is your majority going to deliver you that contract?

Sure the east majority may vote for a DOH contract. What you are missing is the company may not offer or be allowed to offer a DOH contract. But even if you do some how manage to get a DOH contract. DFR II happens. That does not require a majority.

Something else that you happen to be missing is before we get a contract there is going to have to be a strike vote. That majority is a little more questionable. Are you comfortable getting 50%+1? Would a strike vote pass?

Something else to remember. In the next merger are you still going to scream majority rules? DAL,UAL,AA all bigger than we are. So when they say majority rules, staple us air are there right? Can they do that? I guess according to you they can.

Actually, a 50+1 vote would probably be MORE devastating to the company than if 100% went out. If the company were to have to guess which flights to operate, it could and likely would be VERY expensive for them, especially if customers started booking away due to the uncertainty. Many of those customers would NEVER be back. NO, I would expect the company to do a "lockout" and cancel the entire system. More predictable, allowing a better cost control for them. They could call it a "force majeure", since there is really no definition of what that is, and not pay anybody except management. Another thing they will do is try to time any job action to have a minimal effect on profits, say winter or fall.

The Pilots should get the FAs to help organize their "job action". The last FA action was the only really successful one on this property since I've been here, and that's a long time.

 

[cleardirect]

[leThe S.S. Leonidas is about to have the same fate as the Titanic, U864 and the S.S.Minnow GLUMP, GLUMP. The water is up to the wheelhouse on the Leonidas

and the rats are jumping into the water, wake up boys the water is cold and deep...USAPA may throw you a line but it won't have a nic on it...ft][/left]

Has something changed in the last few days?

The west is not going anywhere. Loenidas is still firmly and unwaveringly supported by the west. We are still waiting for the judge to rule on the motion to dismiss. Even if that happens the company will appeal. Nothing changes. If that is denied then the company still has to make a choice to use the agreed to Nicolau or risk being involved in a DFR.

Believe what you want but the west is firmly behind leonidas and the implementation of the arbitration.

Maybe you misread the name. I think it is USAPA that is taking on water fast.

 

[cleardirect]

Actually, a 50+1 vote would probably be MORE devastating to the company than if 100% went out. If the company were to have to guess which flights to operate, it could and likely would be VERY expensive for them, especially if customers started booking away due to the uncertainty. Many of those customers would NEVER be back. NO, I would expect the company to do a "lockout" and cancel the entire system. More predictable, allowing a better cost control for them. They could call it a "force majeure", since there is really no definition of what that is, and not pay anybody except management. Another thing they will do is try to time any job action to have a minimal effect on profits, say winter or fall.

The Pilots should get the FAs to help organize their "job action". The last FA action was the only really successful one on this property since I've been here, and that's a long time.

You know I thought that you just ignored things on purpose. Now I believe that you are incapable of understanding even the simplest things.

STRIKE VOTE. That is different than a STRIKE. Taking a vote and walking a line. Different things. Come on you say you have been in the business a log time. Except you have the understanding of a new hire.

A STRIKE VOTE requires 50%+1 of all members. A non vote is a no vote. Can usapa manage to get 2000 yes votes to even go on strike when/if the NMB releases us. Doubtful!

The Pilots should get the FAs to help organize their "job action".

What does that say about your beloved usapa? Incapable of even the simplest of tasks. Wandering in circles does nothing. So far that is all usapa has done. For 2.5 years wandered in circles. Best money you ever spent. Following a lost leader.