Okay, read Silvers ruling.
I did notice she said "Addington" ..quoted it actually...used it as precedent not once but at least twice that I remember.
So much for a legal nullity.
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Okay, read Silvers ruling.
I did notice she said "Addington" ..quoted it actually...used it as precedent not once but at least twice that I remember.
So much for a legal nullity.
I have talked to a west friend of mine that was there, and he had the same opinion as your learned friends. I have talked to east friends of mine that seem to have a better understanding of these things, and rightly called the Wake trial, and they too thought she would dismiss. Never can tell, huh?
Do you remember the question I have asked twice and never gotten an answer to? In the last hearing transcripts Judge Silver says something like" The 9th stated that the west pilots have been harmed", and I asked if she meant Judge Wake's court or SFO? Is that what your are talking about, and if so, what do the "learned" minds think she was talking about? Serious question.
After watching the latest PHX crew news, I expected nothing less than this. Do you realize how stupid you sound and what damage this type of comment does?
prechilill
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Was I in the crew news???
You really know a lot, or is it, you really know not? How is your ethics these days...hopefully doing better.
nevergiveup
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What about at Southwest?
I have no idea? Are you Suzi, or some other crazy xxxxx? My ethics are unchanged. Yours?
prechilill
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I don't think you know, but of course, when do you ever worry about the truth? Nothing beats a good fairy tale for an east pilot!
Nope can never tell, everyone was surprised by the 9th as well, especially with the dissent. That comment you speak of I believe was her quoting and agreeing with bybee the dissenter, it was in the context that harm is being done but the 9th says that harm cannot be quantified until a contract is ratified. (i.e usapa decides to make all west pilots senior to all east pilots so the west doesn't want to sue.) I'm not sure if I have it right but that is how I heard it while sitting there, it got quite a reaction from the gallery
Well, I will admit, I thought for sure she would dismiss, but not because of usapa's motion, but because "Johnny come lately" should have brought it up sooner.
I think Silver was talking about the 9th, not Wake, and I think it is an obvious statement like "clearly the 9th embraced the idea that the West pilots where being harmed". I would think if she meant Wake's court, she being a member of the same court would have said, "the district court" or simply "judge Wake". Besides, in their opinion, the 9th talked about the harm the West pilots have endured (out of seniority furloughs), and noted that portion of Addington was dropped, so they couldn't use it to rule the case ripe. That is what I think Silver was talking about.
What about Southwest?
In the past when they aquired another airline, they put the other airlines pilots with the pilots in their hiring pool.
We can gladly give you that deal if that is what you want.
A little excerpt from the "OLE" PHX update, added with the notion that, NO ONE WANTS A PHX HUB! A bit of reality might be needed! Oh BTW donate to the Koontz heavily pleez! MM
Path One:
Judge Silver decides to dismiss the DJ sometime in 2012. The company has already announced that it will appeal to the Ninth Circuit if it doesn't get a solid answer. A dismissal would not meet the company's stated requirements, so it is likely that it would be appealed. From experience, we know that process could take at least one year, if it doesn't go to the bottom of the pile like at the District Court. If USAPA's dismissal is granted AND the Ninth upholds the dismissal, we would be one and half years (AT LEAST) from the exact situation we are in now- without a court answer. This would leave Doug Parker to make a decision that he could actually make today. The difference is only that he will have no excuse and nowhere to hide at that time.
Total delay from the beginning of the merger: 7.5-8 years.
That is just for the seniority issue, as we will still have the rest of the contract to negotiate because we clearly can't negotiate a contract without seniority! The big wheel keeps on spinnin'
Path Two:
Sometime in 2012, Judge Silver rules against USAPA's Motion to Dismiss, and agrees to hear the case. We can reasonably estimate that it will take AT LEAST a year for Judge Silver to put this case on her docket. This doesn't account for any delay motions or discovery.
Time needed since the beginning of the merger just to get to trial: 7.5-8 years
Path Two, Option A:
Judge Silver hears the case in 2013. She rules that the company must use the Nicolau award. USAPA will most certainly appeal that ruling to the Ninth Circuit. Again, we estimate that it will take AT LEAST another year to hear the appeal. If the Ninth upholds the ruling we will expect USAPA to appeal to the Supreme Court. This too can take considerable time. Another possibility would be that the Ninth Circuit kicks the case back to the District Court for "further work." How long could that take?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 8-10 years
Path 2, Option B:
This would be Doug's worse imaginable outcome. Judge Silver hears the case and decides the company is not required to use the Nicolau arbitrated award. It is unlikely that the company would appeal, but they could. The company has stated in court that they do not have a negotiating position on seniority, so it stands to reason that they would have to develop one. How long would that take? We do not know, but it certainly means more delay. This puts the company in the position of deciding fairness, yet through this entire failed merger Doug has been claiming neutrality. What happens next? Do the east managers sit down at the table with east pilots only, east and west pilots, or west pilots only? Since there are no west pilots on the NAC or Merger Committees, it is more than likely that only east pilots will determine what the seniority list would be. We know USAPA is constitutionally obligated to present DOH, but what will the company present? Will it be the Nicolau since that is the list the company has accepted? Will they finally accept DOH? Will the company present its own creation, perhaps a hybrid list of the two? Will the company propose its own set of fences, restrictions and conditions? We do know that whatever the company comes up with, it is going to be financially beneficial to them, and certainly not to the pilots. How long will it take to work out a negotiated list and acceptable conditions and restrictions (if that is even possible)?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 9-? Years.
At the end of option B, the West pilots would be presented with a seniority list that we likely had no input in the creation of, and in any case would probably not be the Nicolau Award. So, standing at the end of the company DJ and a negotiated seniority list will be the West pilots with an "unquestionably ripe" DFR lawsuit. This starts the legal process all over again raising uncertainty about the newly negotiated seniority list, with the possibility of an injunction that might prevent the contract from being implemented. That could mean no pay raise or any of the other needed contractual improvements for anyone while the DFR process runs its course again.
Total delay from the time of the merger to decide seniority: 10-20 years.
That big old wheel keeps spinnin'
These figures represent realistic estimates of the time required only to settle what should have been settled in 2007- an integrated seniority list. How long will it take to get a contract after we have a seniority list?
Does management really think that these two separate "warring" pilots groups will maintain this operation as it is indefinitely and without disintegrating in the next 1.5 -10 years? Does anyone in management think that a delay like that will improve the attitude and motivation of these two "warring" pilot groups? Does anyone, pilot or management, believe that it is reasonable to ask (or even think about asking) this pilot group to wait 8-15 years after the merger announcement to gain any contractual benefit? Does anyone think that US Airways will continue to operate for the next 1.5-10 years in this UNSUSTAINABLE condition? Does management really believe this is good management?
That big old wheel keeps on spinning. Unfortunately, Parker is hiding behind his DJ (whether or not it is merely a "delay tactic," or a legitimate legal concern) and it may ultimately crush the airline if he does not remove the uncertainty of the seniority issue and find an answer in 2011. Otherwise, he and all of us are going to be looking for a new job because this place will not be worth working for or saving.
This all could have been settled two years ago when the company was enjoined with the Addington case, but the company begged Judge Wake to release them instead. During the appeal to the Ninth, if US Airways was so concerned about getting an answer, then management could easily have filed an "Amicus Brief" and told the Court of Appeals that they needed clarity in order to move forward. Instead they walked away from their leadership roles and now two-years later they want the court to run their business for them. The same court that called the company a "Johnny come lately" when bringing this DJ into judge Silver's court. The same judge that told Mr. Siegel:
"But you know how you could avoid being sued by the West Pilots."
Spin the wheel and place your bets. What year do you think we will finally get a new contract?
2012
2013
2014
2015**
2016**
2017**
2018**
2019**
2020**
We know it is not going to be 2011.
** There is a high probability that this airline will collapses without a new contract in these years, so your wager will pay double if you win.
Sincerely,
David Braid
Eric Ferguson
Roger Velez CAN YOU SAY, FRAGMENTATION, SALE OF WEST, UNMERGER! MY ADVICE, DONATE HEAVILY! MM!
Path One:
Judge Silver decides to dismiss the DJ sometime in 2012. The company has already announced that it will appeal to the Ninth Circuit if it doesn't get a solid answer. A dismissal would not meet the company's stated requirements, so it is likely that it would be appealed. From experience, we know that process could take at least one year, if it doesn't go to the bottom of the pile like at the District Court. If USAPA's dismissal is granted AND the Ninth upholds the dismissal, we would be one and half years (AT LEAST) from the exact situation we are in now- without a court answer. This would leave Doug Parker to make a decision that he could actually make today. The difference is only that he will have no excuse and nowhere to hide at that time.
Total delay from the beginning of the merger: 7.5-8 years.
That is just for the seniority issue, as we will still have the rest of the contract to negotiate because we clearly can't negotiate a contract without seniority! The big wheel keeps on spinnin'
Path Two:
Sometime in 2012, Judge Silver rules against USAPA's Motion to Dismiss, and agrees to hear the case. We can reasonably estimate that it will take AT LEAST a year for Judge Silver to put this case on her docket. This doesn't account for any delay motions or discovery.
Time needed since the beginning of the merger just to get to trial: 7.5-8 years
Path Two, Option A:
Judge Silver hears the case in 2013. She rules that the company must use the Nicolau award. USAPA will most certainly appeal that ruling to the Ninth Circuit. Again, we estimate that it will take AT LEAST another year to hear the appeal. If the Ninth upholds the ruling we will expect USAPA to appeal to the Supreme Court. This too can take considerable time. Another possibility would be that the Ninth Circuit kicks the case back to the District Court for "further work." How long could that take?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 8-10 years
Path 2, Option B:
This would be Doug's worse imaginable outcome. Judge Silver hears the case and decides the company is not required to use the Nicolau arbitrated award. It is unlikely that the company would appeal, but they could. The company has stated in court that they do not have a negotiating position on seniority, so it stands to reason that they would have to develop one. How long would that take? We do not know, but it certainly means more delay. This puts the company in the position of deciding fairness, yet through this entire failed merger Doug has been claiming neutrality. What happens next? Do the east managers sit down at the table with east pilots only, east and west pilots, or west pilots only? Since there are no west pilots on the NAC or Merger Committees, it is more than likely that only east pilots will determine what the seniority list would be. We know USAPA is constitutionally obligated to present DOH, but what will the company present? Will it be the Nicolau since that is the list the company has accepted? Will they finally accept DOH? Will the company present its own creation, perhaps a hybrid list of the two? Will the company propose its own set of fences, restrictions and conditions? We do know that whatever the company comes up with, it is going to be financially beneficial to them, and certainly not to the pilots. How long will it take to work out a negotiated list and acceptable conditions and restrictions (if that is even possible)?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 9-? Years.
At the end of option B, the West pilots would be presented with a seniority list that we likely had no input in the creation of, and in any case would probably not be the Nicolau Award. So, standing at the end of the company DJ and a negotiated seniority list will be the West pilots with an "unquestionably ripe" DFR lawsuit. This starts the legal process all over again raising uncertainty about the newly negotiated seniority list, with the possibility of an injunction that might prevent the contract from being implemented. That could mean no pay raise or any of the other needed contractual improvements for anyone while the DFR process runs its course again.
Total delay from the time of the merger to decide seniority: 10-20 years.
That big old wheel keeps spinnin'
These figures represent realistic estimates of the time required only to settle what should have been settled in 2007- an integrated seniority list. How long will it take to get a contract after we have a seniority list?
Does management really think that these two separate "warring" pilots groups will maintain this operation as it is indefinitely and without disintegrating in the next 1.5 -10 years? Does anyone in management think that a delay like that will improve the attitude and motivation of these two "warring" pilot groups? Does anyone, pilot or management, believe that it is reasonable to ask (or even think about asking) this pilot group to wait 8-15 years after the merger announcement to gain any contractual benefit? Does anyone think that US Airways will continue to operate for the next 1.5-10 years in this UNSUSTAINABLE condition? Does management really believe this is good management?
That big old wheel keeps on spinning. Unfortunately, Parker is hiding behind his DJ (whether or not it is merely a "delay tactic," or a legitimate legal concern) and it may ultimately crush the airline if he does not remove the uncertainty of the seniority issue and find an answer in 2011. Otherwise, he and all of us are going to be looking for a new job because this place will not be worth working for or saving.
This all could have been settled two years ago when the company was enjoined with the Addington case, but the company begged Judge Wake to release them instead. During the appeal to the Ninth, if US Airways was so concerned about getting an answer, then management could easily have filed an "Amicus Brief" and told the Court of Appeals that they needed clarity in order to move forward. Instead they walked away from their leadership roles and now two-years later they want the court to run their business for them. The same court that called the company a "Johnny come lately" when bringing this DJ into judge Silver's court. The same judge that told Mr. Siegel:
"But you know how you could avoid being sued by the West Pilots."
Spin the wheel and place your bets. What year do you think we will finally get a new contract?
2012
2013
2014
2015**
2016**
2017**
2018**
2019**
2020**
We know it is not going to be 2011.
** There is a high probability that this airline will collapses without a new contract in these years, so your wager will pay double if you win.
Sincerely,
David Braid
Eric Ferguson
Roger Velez CAN YOU SAY, FRAGMENTATION, SALE OF WEST, UNMERGER! MY ADVICE, DONATE HEAVILY! MM!
Phoenix
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Hey Nic... You forgot to start your post with "Hey scab... Hey clown.. or Hey Jackass".
Too bad you didn't tell Doug that USAPA is a scab organization during the PHX crew news. It would have changed everything and solved world hunger too.
Phoenix
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How is it that the company will collapse in 2018 when they are saving so much money by having the pilots on bankruptcy wages that are severe reductions from 1998 pay rates, over 20 years old?
Why would someone send them a donation? I wouldn't trust them with a week's worth of lunch money.
Thank you I have been out of high school way to many years 4 this type of rhetoric. Wait let me give it a try. Punks from a punk a$$ airline in the desert. I knew it that kind of name calling makes u right in any situation..... Wow i feel better about myself.
sumadarson
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The west attorneys are not celebrating. With Judge Silver dismissing the west pilots cross claim suit, it was the last chance for the west lawyers to get their bill paid by USAPA.
Look for the lawyers that represented the west to abandon them quicker than alpa did, after they were voted out and the money was gone.
Look for the lawyers that represented the west to abandon them quicker than alpa did, after they were voted out and the money was gone.
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