US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Just a couple of days ago the West was rejoicing about Silver's decision to hear the Company's DJ... but they failed to understand a key premise. Silver acknowledges what the 9th said.... The Nic is a bargaining position and there ain't no thing such as a so-called accepted seniority list. The company has been ordered by the 9th to bargain seniority with USAPA, so says the company, and so agrees Silver, otherwise there would be no need for a DJ. B a r g a i n i n g P o s i t i o n....... I n t e r n a l U n i o n D i s p u t e.......

Have you usapians even been in the same reality as the rest of the planet?

First, the 9th did not order the company to negotiate seniority. The company was not even a party in Addington, and the 9th did not address them whatsoever. The 9th ordered usapa to "bargain in good faith, for all pilots, east and West", something usapa is incapable of doing, and the 9th's order has fallen on deaf ears.

Second, in essence the 9th screwed the company. They said not ripe until usapa attains an unobtainable non-Nic CBA. So, the company is held hostage by a scab union, unable to finalize a 6 year old aquisition and move forward in its bussiness planning. Caught in a quagmire of two pilot contracts signed in an enviroment completely different from todays industry and current company needs.

The need for the DJ arises from usapa's complete insistance to not adhere to the legal findings to date, and from the company's desire for resolution.

The company most certainly "accepted" the Nic. The Nic was the end product of the "Internal union dispute", therefore it is the only "Bargaining position" usapa can present, without being guilty of the "Unquestionably ripe DFR".

 

[nic4us]

I DO have a March 1987 hire date. Accepted. Not implimented. Well be in court for quite sometime. Get used to it.

I do not believe well fragment. However, if we were to fragment hubs are real estate that are the most valuable asset (location, location, location). Fleet types can be bought or sold like food and water. I know how you wish to cheery pick what Parker and Kirby say that you want to believe supports your arguments. But Parker said that PHX (and LAS) as a standalone hub didn't have the revenue strength to support itself without the MERGER (notice I didn't say acquisition).

You can say I'm junior all you want. That part of the equation will not play out for quite some time. Continue at your (job) peril.

Good luck.

I do not believe we will fragment either. I was just pointing out to MM that the real estate both he and you describe is not owned by the east pilot group. Phoenix might go away, although the 4th largest metro area in the country would be a pretty dumb thing to abandon completely. Frankly, the only valuable single piece of real estate that LCC has a good hold on is DCA. The rest is like Crazypilot pointed out, a system or network of routes.

The point being, in MM's fragmentation scenario, east/West lines will not be as brightline as he implies, because the decisions would be made in Tempe, not usapa HQ in CLT.

 

[Metroyet]

I know. I know.. Change the subject. 🙄 Maybe you can bring up martians next. Anything except the 9th.

Do you have the slightest understanding that THE COMPANY had NOTHING TO DO with Addington OR the 9th?! The dj is its own thing. USCABA ignored the roll of the company since day 1...despite all the warnings from the west. Guess what? They kinda matter! Idiots.

 

[prechilill]

Just had a happy thought: another six years of LOA93... 😀

 

[No Land Green]

Just had a happy thought: another six years of LOA93... 😀

That is a very happy thought!!!!

 

[No Land Green]

Had a SWA FO who was following the USAPA drama. He had a East pilot requesting the JS. Prior to going to the back he directed the JS rider to remove the "Scab" union pilot backer. Captain may let you ride but I am telling you NOT to expose our passengers to your scab attempt to undermine industry seniority norms. (UNION PILOT red badge backer)

This is hysterical. Now we have the SWA FO Jump Seat Uniform Police. This is so FUNNY!!!!!! I'll be sure to keep an eye out for the LUV JS'ers and do a uniform inspection on the jetway before I let them on my airplane. This is so childish, LMAO!!!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

Have you usapians even been in the same reality as the rest of the planet?

First, the 9th did not order the company to negotiate seniority. The company was not even a party in Addington, and the 9th did not address them whatsoever. The 9th ordered usapa to "bargain in good faith, for all pilots, east and West", something usapa is incapable of doing, and the 9th's order has fallen on deaf ears.

Second, in essence the 9th screwed the company. They said not ripe until usapa attains an unobtainable non-Nic CBA. So, the company is held hostage by a scab union, unable to finalize a 6 year old aquisition and move forward in its bussiness planning. Caught in a quagmire of two pilot contracts signed in an enviroment completely different from todays industry and current company needs.

The need for the DJ arises from usapa's complete insistance to not adhere to the legal findings to date, and from the company's desire for resolution.

The company most certainly "accepted" the Nic. The Nic was the end product of the "Internal union dispute", therefore it is the only "Bargaining position" usapa can present, without being guilty of the "Unquestionably ripe DFR".

The 9th said far more than "not ripe," notwithstanding the passionate, willful ignorance to the contrary.

The 9th laid out numerous statements of premise upon which they concluded "not ripe".

The 9th acknowledged "To be sure, the parties’ interest would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute..." ("internal dispute")

However, they admitted that "the court [the 9th] cannot fashion a remedy." (the "Internal Arbitration", as the 9th called it, did not become an injunction. They refrained from intervention.)

And they acknowledged the result of refraining from judicial intervention (thought the court admitted it could not provide a remedy, the court laid out the future...) "we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR...."

They acknowledged that "USAPA won the election and was certified as the collective bargaining representative for the entire group of pilots, East and West...."

Just watch PHX crew news if you have any doubt about who Doug believes he is legally required to bargain with.

 

[cleardirect]

The 9th said far more than "not ripe," notwithstanding the passionate, willful ignorance to the contrary.

The 9th laid out numerous statements of premise upon which they concluded "not ripe".

The 9th acknowledged "To be sure, the parties’ interest would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute..." ("internal dispute")

However, they admitted that "the court [the 9th] cannot fashion a remedy." (the "Internal Arbitration", as the 9th called it, did not become an injunction. They refrained from intervention.)

And they acknowledged the result of refraining from judicial intervention (thought the court admitted it could not provide a remedy, the court laid out the future...) "we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR...."

They acknowledged that "USAPA won the election and was certified as the collective bargaining representative for the entire group of pilots, East and West...."

Just watch PHX crew news if you have any doubt about who Doug believes he is legally required to bargain with.

Doug knows who he has to bargain with. He also knows about DFR. He knows what a jury said about DOH. He does not have to bargain for something that gets him sued.

Just like usapa's status quo lawsuit It is not bad faith to not agree with the union position.

 

[nic4us]

The 9th said far more than "not ripe," notwithstanding the passionate, willful ignorance to the contrary.

The 9th laid out numerous statements of premise upon which they concluded "not ripe".

The 9th acknowledged "To be sure, the parties’ interest would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute..." ("internal dispute")

However, they admitted that "the court [the 9th] cannot fashion a remedy." (the "Internal Arbitration", as the 9th called it, did not become an injunction. They refrained from intervention.)

And they acknowledged the result of refraining from judicial intervention (thought the court admitted it could not provide a remedy, the court laid out the future...) "we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR...."

They acknowledged that "USAPA won the election and was certified as the collective bargaining representative for the entire group of pilots, East and West...."

Just watch PHX crew news if you have any doubt about who Doug believes he is legally required to bargain with.

Nowhere did I state usapa was not the legally elected bargaining unit. Nowhere does anybody contest that usapa is the legally elected bargaining unit. At no time has the company or AOL asked for any further clarification whether usapa is the bargaining unit.

You are argueing that the 9th's affirmation of something that nobody is contesting is a green light to do something the 9th specifically told usapa they cannot do, that being implement a DOH list to renege on binding arbitration for the sole purpose of improving the condition of its majority east members at the direct detriment of its West members that they also have a DFR toward.

You either have absolutely no idea what "good faith" means, or are just completely head in the sand from the usapa propaganda.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I do not believe we will fragment either. I was just pointing out to MM that the real estate both he and you describe is not owned by the east pilot group. Phoenix might go away, although the 4th largest metro area in the country would be a pretty dumb thing to abandon completely. Frankly, the only valuable single piece of real estate that LCC has a good hold on is DCA. The rest is like Crazypilot pointed out, a system or network of routes.

The point being, in MM's fragmentation scenario, east/West lines will not be as brightline as he implies, because the decisions would be made in Tempe, not usapa HQ in CLT.

It's not "owned" by the West OR the company, either. It is LEASED. Having said that, the ONLY access to east bases is through the JCBA. Absent that, if PHX domicle is abandoned, so too are YOUR jobs. The only way you could get jobs EAST is coming up throught the bottom the way it currently is being done.

Don't think for a minute that couldn't happen under the right circumstances, however, if the economy is taking a second dive.

Good luck.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It's not "owned" by the West OR the company, either. It is LEASED. Having said that, the ONLY access to east bases is through the JCBA. Absent that, if PHX domicle is abandoned, so too are YOUR jobs. The only way you could get jobs EAST is coming up throught the bottom the way it currently is being done.

Don't think for a minute that couldn't happen under the right circumstances, however, if the economy is taking a second dive.

Good luck.

Here's your problem: Any modification of the T/A will have be done by USAPA. The evidence is already there from before Addington and since Addington that USAPA can't do that. Hence, any changes to the West means the West has a direct path to federal court. Essentially, that's what the company's declaratory action is all about because they know that any deal cutting with USAPA will likely be a DFR. That is something the company wants no part of. So, since we're talking hypotheticals, how about this one on for size: severe double dip recession, Parker finds a merger partner but puts Airways in bankruptcy, LOA93 is still active which means you have zero in the way fragmentation protection again (West still has standard ALPA fragmentation language) and voila! Massive reduction for Airways and there's NOT A THING THE EAST OR USAPA CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Here's the language from the still active and very much in force LOA93:

If the Company is under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection during
the duration of this Agreement, the Association agrees that the
provisions of Section l.F., as amended, will not apply during the
pendency of such Chapter 11 case, and will be re-established one
year after the implementation of a confirmed plan of reorganization
in such Chapter 11 case.

 

[nic4us]

It's not "owned" by the West OR the company, either. It is LEASED. Having said that, the ONLY access to east bases is through the JCBA. Absent that, if PHX domicle is abandoned, so too are YOUR jobs. The only way you could get jobs EAST is coming up throught the bottom the way it currently is being done.

Don't think for a minute that couldn't happen under the right circumstances, however, if the economy is taking a second dive.

Good luck.

You east folks need a remedial lesson in ownership.

Aside from that, who said anything about access to east bases, they would be gone in a fragmentation also. The only bottom way up, would be through the new company's structure, after a SLI integration if more than 50% of LCC went to another company, and that SLI would involve the only "accepted" system seniority list at LCC.

Again, you are making the exact same mistake you made with the AWA aquisition of AAA. You are looking at it like everybody else is getting added to your list, when in reality (especially in an LCC fragmentation) you would be combined to another completely seperate list. With an '87 Nic number, as in your case, there might not be enough jobs for you to retain one.

But, like I said, I do not think fragmentation is more than a remote possibility. If it comes to that, none of us will have jobs, because the people buying the parts won't want anything to do with any of us.

 

[Barrister]

Here's your problem: Any modification of the T/A will have be done by USAPA. The evidence is already there from before Addington and since Addington that USAPA can't do that. Hence, any changes to the West means the West has a direct path to federal court. Essentially, that's what the company's declaratory action is all about because they know that any deal cutting with USAPA will likely be a DFR. That is something the company wants no part of. So, since we're talking hypotheticals, how about this one on for size: severe double dip recession, Parker finds a merger partner but puts Airways in bankruptcy, LOA93 is still active which means you have zero in the way fragmentation protection again (West still has standard ALPA fragmentation language) and voila! Massive reduction for Airways and there's NOT A THING THE EAST OR USAPA CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Here's the language from the still active and very much in force LOA93:

If the Company is under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection during
the duration of this Agreement, the Association agrees that the
provisions of Section l.F., as amended, will not apply during the
pendency of such Chapter 11 case, and will be re-established one
year after the implementation of a confirmed plan of reorganization
in such Chapter 11 case.

Yea....Parker...with 2.5 billion in the bank, is going to come up with a Ch-11 scenario
so he can merge West and East......don't hold your breath rookie!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[aquagreen73s]

Yea....Parker...with 2.5 billion in the bank, is going to come up with a Ch-11 scenario
so he can merge West and East......don't hold your breath rookie!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

AWA made $30 million in the six months leading up to the merger and was projected to make money all year in 2005, yet AWA was apparently on the brink. How was that possible? (Not a rhetorical question...it has an answer so feel free to step right up and answer if you're brave enough and then you get the next question)

 

[Ames]

This is hysterical. Now we have the SWA FO Jump Seat Uniform Police. This is so FUNNY!!!!!! I'll be sure to keep an eye out for the LUV JS'ers and do a uniform inspection on the jetway before I let them on my airplane. This is so childish, LMAO!!!!!!

It's so childish yet you are going to do it. LMAO!!