US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Barrister]

Where did USAPA say that? PROOF!

The 9th left USAPA free to bargain with the Company. Implementation of whatever is bargained is only effected via the wish of the pilots in a ratification vote.

Don't forget that the 9th was clear on why USAPA was formed and said nothing negative about it. Also,
made it clear that a CBA is unlikely with NIC in it....something Wake called speculative at best........THIS THING IS GONNA WIND
UP BACK IN THE 9th IN 2 YEARS!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[luvthe9]

"Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."


9th Circuit court published ruling

Oh yes, LUV gets it. Your problem with an
"alternate bargaining position" was invalidated by a higher, LEGAL entity. Luv gets that! 😀 ESPECIALLY THIS PART- "even if that proposal IS NOT THE NICOLAU AWARD....."

 

[luvthe9]

Don't forget that the 9th was clear on why USAPA was formed and said nothing negative about it. Also,
made it clear that a CBA is unlikely with NIC in it....something Wake called speculative at best........THIS THING IS GONNA WIND
UP BACK IN THE 9th IN 2 YEARS!!

NICDOA
NPJB

With the same outcome as the first one! Except the clerks will really kick tail this time and slam this one home hard. There will be NO question about what the Nic means. NOTHING.

 

[Black Swan]

"Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."


9th Circuit court published ruling

Nic4US gets the first prize for the first re hash of history! Congrats! Read the last line, again, and then read what Nic says. There is the 9th, right in their faces, yet they re write it immediately.

 

[traderjake]

Leonidas will also be sued for damage. It's sole purpose of founding was to destroy East pilots' livlihoods. Their first act was to not support pay parity. There will be a lawsuit for that also. Leonidas is a corrupt organization that has stolen ID's to destroy W 2 s of East pilots in order to achieve the Nic. We have the videos, lanyards, statements. There will be a suit.

We'll add that to your list of predictions.

Still waiting for the first one to come true.

 

[Black Swan]

Holly cow!!! luv almost gets it!!

Now if he can wrap his head around the part that laws are broken once the union takes an alternate bargaining position that harms a minority for the purpose of promoting a majority at their expense, he will understand why Nic is both final and binding.

So the Nic, is final and binding? Unbelievable denial. Thank you Nic4Us the 10th court of Appeals Leonidas! You, are the winner!

 

[Black Swan]

"Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."


9th Circuit court published ruling

One more time, Nic. Here it is! One more time- read the last section.

 

[Phoenix]

I said the company won't negotiate seniority, they will just accept what usapa gives them, you claimed that seniority would be negotiated. Which is it?

The two parties that are doing the bargaining get to decide how they freely bargain. Are you Ok with that?

 

[CallawayGolf]

With the same outcome as the first one! Except the clerks will really kick tail this time and slam this one home hard. There will be NO question about what the Nic means. NOTHING.

The Company’s Declaratory Judgment relief petition is ripe. The questions the Company is asking the court to answer are exactly why the DJ process was established in the first place. I have little doubt that even on appeal (many years into the future based on the court’s pace) that the most liberal and overturned circuit court in the nation will get the ripeness question right this time around, and will therefore have to look at the merits of the Company’s petitions before the court. The justices/clerks will not be able to conveniently forget that there is a Transition Agreement between the various parties, that a binding arbitration process was agreed to by the same, and that the Nicolau Award was the result of that process and agreement. With the Company filing the DJ, this could never be erroneously classified as an internal union matter; the Company is entitled to relief from the untenable choice USAPA has left them with.

The ruling from the Ninth in Addington said a lot of things about how typical internal union issues are to be resolved and where the unquestionably ripe line is in the CBA process, but they didn’t resolve the dispute between the two pilot groups and they left Management with the impossible choice of either honoring the TA and thereby risk a work stoppage or to accept USAPA’s modified proposal and face an unquestionably ripe hybrid DFR/collusion liability lawsuit which would likely result in substantial financial damages. So the result of the DJ will be nothing like the last ruling from the ninth in that the courts will provide an actionable resolution to the ongoing dispute. What that resolution may be is still a matter of opinion until the ruling(s) are issued. I’m persuaded that the courts will rule that anything other than the NIC will place the Company and USAPA in a position of facing substantial legal and financial liabilities.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Cally, "I have little doubt that even on appeal (many years into the future based on the court’s pace) that the most liberal and overturned circuit court in the nation will get the ripeness question right this time around, and will therefore have to look at the merits " Good for you BRO and you said your golf partner WAKE had it right also, Good LUCK! You think this AIRLINE will be here in it's present form "many years from now? Dream on Bobby!

 

[Ames]

If it is FINAL and BINDING, then what defense is needed? Law stands unto itself. There is NO need to hire an outside party to enforce the law. The US justice system is in place, and will enforce law. So what you have now, with Nicloau, is neither FINAL, nor BINDING. Just a negotiating position within a union. No law was broken.

.... says the fool with no sense of reality.

 

[nic4us]

There is no question our MEC made mistakes and gave in to a very organized, very verbal minority in our pilot group. I know the direction the Merger comittee was headed. I talked to them personally. What they told me and what they did are two completely different things. So what changed it? The MEC.

What I want is probably impossible. I want my old job back...the one I used to enjoy. This one is full of anxiety, and hatred and hard feelings. The NIC, if it is ever implemented will, IMO, break the camels back. DOH in it's purest form would do the same thing. You say I want a do over now that my fortunes improved? The NIC didn't hurt me personally to any degree. But it will hurt many of my friends and I honestly feel it will harm the airline. Even if you win, you will ultimately lose unless you remain isolated in PHX. This thing has gone on too long...the award is outdated.

You also asked in another post if I thought there was a venue to put the fairness of the NIC on trial against the present paradigm. No, I don't believe there is, but I can still want it! 😀

An East poster said he couldn't figure me out because I seem inconsistent in my opinions. I imagine that is true. I read things for myself. I judge things for myself and call them like I see them. I read the NIC cover to cover when it came out and my judgment was that it was punitive and prejudicial because we ticked NIC off and mishandled the process. That was our fault, no doubt, but what NIC did was short sighted and petty. But what about now? What happens going forward if one side or the other wins? I don't see any good coming from it. IMO, the only way we could prosper is to start from scratch. But we won't because guys in your court are committed to the NIC and guys over here are committed to DOH. Save the legal mumbo jumbo and "we don't have anyone that represents West". AOL is the closest thing I've ever seen to a labor union without being one. Collectively, we could do anything we wanted.

When pilots have to buy tickets on their own airline to travel because they can't count on being given the jumpseat, things are bad...REALLY bad. And I feel they will get worse.

Driver B)

Driver,

Good post, however there are somethings I would like to add when it comes to "fairness of the Nic", "your old job" and "jumpseats".

Colello and Monda were hired on the same day. They likely had very parralell careers. Is it fair that Monda stayed employed while Colello hit the street? Not really, but a line had to be drawn, that is how it works. Same with the Nic. There really is no mutually agreeable "fair" way to do it, as evidenced by the need for arbitration. So, the "civil" way of doing it is let a neutral third party decide. Is it fair that Monda and Colello are now next to 2005 hires, is it fair that the #1 West pilot instantly became #518 never to get close to the top again before retiring, is it "fair" that the vast majority of senior east pilot's positions were greatly enhanced while the senior West pilots took it in the shorts? Not really, but a line had to be drawn, and it is as close to "fair" as can be expected, that is just how it works.

"your old job back". Sorry, time marches on and half the fun, actually most the fun was being young. It ain't coming back, but the "enjoy" part is a state of mind. Let go of the hate and animosity. If you encounter a West pilot, go out of your way to treat them kindly. That is what I do for east pilots, and have found it to be greatly satifying to see them go from dreading to have to deal with me, to absolutley confused as to how easy it was. I know...I am a sadistic jerk, deriving pleasure from seeing the tortured expression on the east faces when their worst fears do not materialize.

"jumpseats". Other than the hotel vans, this is where I encounter the most east pilots, oh and a lot of F/As. If someone feels they would rather buy a ticket than deal with me, that is their problem. I have never denied a jumpseat.........ever!!!!! I have never harassed a jumpseater...no wait that ain't true..there was this Jet Blue guy one time 11 years ago that was a complete tool....when he told me I should quit my AWA captain gig and apply at JB because they were going to put the likes of AWA out of bussiness, and I would soon find myself unemployed anyway, I had to reply that his upstart won't last 10 years, and what were they going to do when TWA pulled their gate leases in JFK? (see how Karma is a b..b..beautiful thing?) Anyway, after a long drought of east jumpseaters, I have recently carried very many, I even hit the east pilot trifecta with 3 in 3 consecutive legs. I welcomed all and have come to a new conclusion. Although I never discussed it with any of them, I feel their attitudes have changed substantially. Most have become comfortable in the knowledge that the Nic is the end game, and it really won't effect them whatsoever. I do still occasionally encounter the angry F/O on the crew vans, who hasn't gotten over the fact that he is not going to leapfrog me in his career at LCC, but hey, if he doe not want to deal with it, he can go buy a ticket.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Cally, "I have little doubt that even on appeal (many years into the future based on the court’s pace) that the most liberal and overturned circuit court in the nation will get the ripeness question right this time around, and will therefore have to look at the merits " Good for you BRO and you said your golf partner WAKE had it right also, Good LUCK! You think this AIRLINE will be here in it's present form "many years from now? Dream on Bobby!

You know what “BRO”, I still do think Wake and Bybee had the correct view of ripeness in the DFR-I matter. Both of their statements on ripeness in this very unique case were well-articulated and well-reasoned taking the relevant facts and laws into consideration. Tashima’s & Graber’s clerks missed most of the main points pertinent to this matter, namely the TA that supersedes the definition of an internal union dispute. Seriously, how can anyone claim that a dispute arising out of a Transition Agreement involving both union and Company parties is still an “internal union dispute”? Did someone forget what the definition of “internal” actually is?

I never met Wake and if we were ever on the golf course or anywhere else at the same time it certainly wasn’t because we have any knowledge of who the other one is. And yes, I do believe US Airways will be around when all of this gets resolved in the courts. Merging with one of the remaining Big Three airlines would be the only scenario by which I would expect US not “to be here in it’s present form”.

BTW, who is Bobby?

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA's Feel Good News. Why It's Getting You Nowhere.

See Story

 

[nic4us]

Nic4US gets the first prize for the first re hash of history! Congrats! Read the last line, again, and then read what Nic says. There is the 9th, right in their faces, yet they re write it immediately.

I have read that last line many times, but have understood it since the first time I read it.

2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."


Very straightforward, and the usapian misunderstanding is completely mindbogling. Taken from the context of arguements of how future events make this case not ripe, the 9th said, "hey, it is even possible that usapa can come up with a non-Nic that the West does not have an issue with, and therefore avoid future litigation-so, not ripe...yet!!".

The only re-write of history is the usapian declaration that this means the 9th told you you could use a non-Nic regardless of the West's position. It is all one sentence Swan! So, come up with a non-Nic that the West is willing to accept in lieu of the Nic, or make it ripe, get sued, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".