US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mikey60]

The Transition Agreement was never meant to be used on a long term, nor devisive basis. We should all prosper equally moving forward. The hang-up is the East using their majority to avoid the implementation of the Nicolau Award. And we ALL will continue to stagnate until you 'get over' it and move on. I am not saying its easy for you. But its been settled using a neutral third party arbitrator.

It is true that the East will get a bigger increase in their pay proportionate to the West. How long will it take? It's up to you. IF you enjoy your low wages on principle, then dont complain to anyone about the predicament that you continue to put yourself in. A 3% raise for the West is pitiful. Considering that Spirit, Airtran, Allegiant, JetBlue make more than the West and WAY MORE than the East, 3% wont cut it.

When you are ready for a raise, tell the thugs running the East union called USAPA, to put up a contract to vote on. The company is ready. I am willing to bet that a contract that includes the Nicolau Award will pass on first try. There are many East pilots who would vote for it. Your thugs running the union are afraid of this.

USAPA = Al Qaeda

Take of the blinders, pull out those ear plugs, slap your self on the cheek a couple times, the movies over. Come back to reality.

You slept through the STAR WARS MOVIE again or was that one of those leonidas videos .........is more than 2 many?

 

[AWA320]

Well then you both need to think it all the way through then. Self help simply ends the status quo period. Self help only temporarily relieves the company of the requirement to maintain the status quo contract terms not the requirement to bargain to reach an agreement.

At what point after an agreement becomes amendable can the company stop or refuse to negotiate in good faith to reach an agreement?.......They can't.

The proof is obvious. Airline managements always (even after self help) eventually reach contract agreements with union represented labor groups because they are required to by law.

underpants

There is no requirement only good faith effort. If there were a requirement then there would be no need for self help now would there?

Its always interesting reading how the east is thinks that only certain aspects apply to them. They talk of contracts but yet they are in the process of violating one! They talk no windfalls but thats all they want from us in the west. This was settled already and the only thing that has not been done is a breach of contract suit filed. There really is no need to today as it makes sense to see the DJ results and though I am certain that the court will inform LCC of their obvious liability thus putting a cork into the many angry f/o's mouths for good on this issue the breach of contract suit lies waiting for usapa.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

Your dfr 2 promise that you try to keep badge backers with is old and tired. You can and will sue for DFR 2 but it will take ten years, instead of playing, you will be suing with yourself eventually.

You forgot to address the issues I brought up in my previous post by the way.

DFR2 is an entirely different issue all together. Breach of contract is what you will face next and that one has teeth. No need to wait for ripeness on this one, time and usapa movements have made it ripe. Now go ask your legal friends and see if I'm joking! We had an agreement via the TA, the east by and through usapa has breachd that agreement whereby LCC is unable to perform. Go on go ask then report back and you wiill no doubt see that your collective tails are in a sling!!!

AWA320

 

[Captain Underpants]

This is just what the doctor ordered. You dont mind if I copy your comment for court now do you??
AWA320

No go right ahead I don't mind! You can add it to the the rest of the last five years of pilot comments, union statements, company videos and court documents and send them all to the judge.

After the new contract is negotiated, ratified and implemented you get to sue and try to prove in court the new contract whatever it turns out to be is illegal. Good luck with that.

underpants

 

[sumadarson]

DFR2 is an entirely different issue all together. Breach of contract is what you will face next and that one has teeth. No need to wait for ripeness on this one, time and usapa movements have made it ripe. Now go ask your legal friends and see if I'm joking! We had an agreement via the TA, the east by and through usapa has breachd that agreement whereby LCC is unable to perform. Go on go ask then report back and you wiill no doubt see that your collective tails are in a sling!!!

AWA320

175 furloughs, 2 million dollars you spent so the 9th could make it easier on USAPA. WYE? WHY?

You just would not listen.

 

[Captain Underpants]

DFR2 is an entirely different issue all together. Breach of contract is what you will face next and that one has teeth. No need to wait for ripeness on this one, time and usapa movements have made it ripe. Now go ask your legal friends and see if I'm joking! We had an agreement via the TA, the east by and through usapa has breachd that agreement whereby LCC is unable to perform. Go on go ask then report back and you wiill no doubt see that your collective tails are in a sling!!!

AWA320

You can't sue the union or the company in court for "breach of contract". A breach of contract claim is a minor dispute under the RLA and falls under the exclusive jurisdiction of the system board and the grievance process.

You can only sue the union for DFR or the union and company together under a hybrid DFR claim and these type of cases can take up to 10 years or more and are almost always won by the union.

underpants

 

[700UW]

Well then you both need to think it all the way through then. Self help simply ends the status quo period. Self help only temporarily relieves the company of the requirement to maintain the status quo contract terms not the requirement to bargain to reach an agreement.

At what point after an agreement becomes amendable can the company stop or refuse to negotiate in good faith to reach an agreement?.......They can't.

The proof is obvious. Airline managements always (even after self help) eventually reach contract agreements with union represented labor groups because they are required to by law.

underpants

Guess you didnt follow what happened at NW, company imposed terms, you either work under it or go on strike. They are not forced by law to reach an agreement.

If they are please show the law to us.

Read this and look at the chart

 

[Captain Underpants]

Guess you didnt follow what happened at NW, company imposed terms, you either work under it or go on strike. They are not forced by law to reach an agreement.

If they are please show the law to us.

True but that is still a temporary situation until a new contract agreement is reached with the union. Are those NW union represented workers now working under a signed contract or is the company now Delta still negotiating to reach an agreement with the union as they are required to by law? Companies can't just impose contract terms forever and permanently ignore the union.

The law is the Railway Labor Act. It requires both unions and companies to reach and sign agreements regarding pay, benefits and working conditions. 99% of the time agreements are signed without a strike and 100% of the time agreements are reached and signed with or without a strike.

underpants

 

[700UW]

You can't sue the union or the company in court for "breach of contract". A breach of contract claim is a minor dispute under the RLA and falls under the exclusive jurisdiction of the system board and the grievance process.

You can only sue the union for DFR or the union and company together under a hybrid DFR claim and these type of cases can take up to 10 years or more and are almost always won by the union.

underpants

Wrong again, when US outsourced the Airbus Overhaul, we sued in Federal Court and A TRO was issued and the work stopped.

Try again, your 0 for 2 now!

True but that is still a temporary situation until a new contract agreement is reached with the union. Are those NW union represented workers now working under a signed contract or is the company now Delta still negotiating to reach an agreement with the union as they are required to by law? Companies can't just impose contract terms forever and permanently ignore the union.

The law is the Railway Labor Act. It requires both unions and companies to reach and sign agreements regarding pay, benefits and working conditions. 99% of the time agreements are signed without a strike and 100% of the time agreements are reached and signed with or without a strike.

underpants

A company can ignore the union, it has happened, they are free to under the RLA once self-help occurs. Like I said, it happened at NW, the RLA does not require a new agreement reached.

NW and AMFA never reached an agreement, NW imposed terms, AMFA stayed on strike for several years, and then gave up and ended the strike and workers came back under the imposed terms that NW enacted. And upon the merger AMFA was voted off the property and no union.

The RLA does not require the company to reach a new CBA with a union, that is why self-help exists. how many negotiating committees and contracts have you done?

Do you know in the railroads, most of the time there is no agreement reached and the PEB has congress legislate a CBA?

Really go educate yourself, because your way off base and wrong.

I have been to school for the RLA and negotiations, and have been on two different negotiating committees, one at US for M&R and one at CO for their FAs.

 

[sumadarson]

Former AWA Capt and F/O ALPA reps, with former ALPA MEC "leader" Jack Stephan.

Make the sound of a flushing toilet, then click here.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Wrong again, when US outsourced the Airbus Overhaul, we sued in Federal Court and A TRO was issued and the work stopped.

Try again, your 0 for 2 now!

Well then that would have to be a major dispute which is an illegal change to the contract terms.

Try again you are 0 for 3 now!

underpants

 

[700UW]

Dude, your way off base and dont know what your talking about, it wasnt ruled a major dispute as we were not allowed to go on strike, it was ruled a minor dispute, and a TRO issued, were you there?

I was and lived it.

You really dont know what your talking about.

The RLA categorizes all labor disputes as either "major" disputes, which concern the making or modification of the collective bargaining agreement between the parties, or "minor" disputes, which involve the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements. Unions can strike over major disputes only after they have exhausted the RLA's "almost interminable" negotiation and mediation procedures. They cannot, on the other hand, strike over minor disputes, either during the arbitration procedures or after an award is issued.

The federal courts have the power to enjoin a strike over a major dispute if the union has not exhausted the RLA's negotiation and mediation procedures. The Norris-LaGuardia Act dictates the procedures that the court must follow. Once the NMB releases the parties from mediation, however, they retain the power to engage in strikes or lockouts, even if they subsequently resume negotiations or the NMB offers mediation again.

The federal courts likewise have the power to enjoin a union from striking over arbitrable disputes. The court may, on the other hand, also require the employer to restore the status quo as a condition of any injunctive relief against a strike.

What if no agreement is reached during the 30-day cooling off period?
If no agreement is reached by the end of the 30-day cooling off period, the parties are free to exercise "self-help." This means that the carrier is free to impose its last offer, temporarily cease operations or engage in other self-help activity (e.g., hiring permanent replacements). The union is free to strike or engage in other self-help activity.

 

[sumadarson]

Dude, your way off base and dont know what your talking about, it wasnt ruled a major dispute as we were not allowed to go on strike, it was ruled a minor dispute, and a TRO issued, were you there?

I was and lived it.

You really dont know what your talking about.

The RLA categorizes all labor disputes as either "major" disputes, which concern the making or modification of the collective bargaining agreement between the parties, or "minor" disputes, which involve the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements. Unions can strike over major disputes only after they have exhausted the RLA's "almost interminable" negotiation and mediation procedures. They cannot, on the other hand, strike over minor disputes, either during the arbitration procedures or after an award is issued.

The federal courts have the power to enjoin a strike over a major dispute if the union has not exhausted the RLA's negotiation and mediation procedures. The Norris-LaGuardia Act dictates the procedures that the court must follow. Once the NMB releases the parties from mediation, however, they retain the power to engage in strikes or lockouts, even if they subsequently resume negotiations or the NMB offers mediation again.

The federal courts likewise have the power to enjoin a union from striking over arbitrable disputes. The court may, on the other hand, also require the employer to restore the status quo as a condition of any injunctive relief against a strike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XAazx3eOTA&feature=related

 

[Captain Underpants]

Wrong again, when US outsourced the Airbus Overhaul, we sued in Federal Court and A TRO was issued and the work stopped.

Try again, your 0 for 2 now!


A company can ignore the union, it has happened, they are free to under the RLA once self-help occurs. Like I said, it happened at NW, the RLA does not require a new agreement reached.

NW and AMFA never reached an agreement, NW imposed terms, AMFA stayed on strike for several years, and then gave up and ended the strike and workers came back under the imposed terms that NW enacted. And upon the merger AMFA was voted off the property and no union.

The RLA does not require the company to reach a new CBA with a union, that is why self-help exists. how many negotiating committees and contracts have you done?

Do you know in the railroads, most of the time there is no agreement reached and the PEB has congress legislate a CBA?

Really go educate yourself, because your way off base and wrong.

I have been to school for the RLA and negotiations, and have been on two different negotiating committees, one at US for M&R and one at CO for their FAs.

Well of course if the strike ended and the workers came back there had to be a signed agreement between the company and the union. (Of course since the company then had all the leverage at NWA it would not have been a favorable agreement for the union but still had to be signed by the union). Yes Congress can also impose a CBA for airline workers as well under the RLA but that is for a defined period of time and is also a temporary situation.

There is no situation where union represented workers are permanently required to work without a negotiated signed contract. As I said the company must eventually reach and sign an agreement with the union.

underpants

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

175 furloughs, 2 million dollars you spent so the 9th could make it easier on USAPA. WYE? WHY?

You just would not listen.

That was hillarious, now how many people do you think she jumped over on the NIC as opposed to her original DOH at USAIRWAYS? which is an ALPA MERGER POLICY NO, NO they never considered! My guess is about 10 years, hey get furloughed change airlines improve your career expectations in a merger another ALPA CONCEPT! The funnier thing is now she's parked in the desert and will be for a long time! MM!