US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Having been around these boards since 2001, I can say with certainty that with some there was no love lost when it came to ALPA. This was especially true during BK1, less so with BK2.

There was a significant number of pilots who wanted out of ALPA at almost any cost. Whether this almost blind hatred of ALPA colored their views to the point where the situation rests now I couldn't hazard a guess.

IIRC there were several attempts to oust ALPA prior & during BK1. The efforts failed up until the Nic award which apparently galvanized a majority to rid themselves of ALPA at any cost.

Wise choice? No idea! What i do know is everyone is paying a very steep price in hard dollar and emotional terms. There is a way out, I just don't know what it is as I don't know nearly enough about the QOL issues and Seniority in general as it applies to pilots.

On one hand DOH seems like a quick and easy way to integrate the 2 groups. I get hired on Monday and you get hired on Tuesday, I'm ahead of you. Period.

Not picking sides here but what I've read on Nic makes it seem flawed, It appears to pick winners and losers.

I just don't like to see good people screwed at work and right now EVERYONE of you is screwed! My God there are prostitutes that have been screwed less.

IMO there is a way out. There's always a way out and the problem now is one of testosterone poisoning. Everyone is bellowing and posturing and so far all that's happened is a few lawyers are a bit richer for their efforts. This is like the trench warfare of WWI, Both sides dug into fixed positions with precious little ground gained by either side.

This situation calls for bold vision and leadership, not kingdom building and Machiavellian intrigue and I'll bet that the posters here know exactly where the common ground is. Problem is that those at the top in USAPA have their own personal agendas and as a result 5,000 or so pilot careers hang in the balance. It's not right.

Well said. I wish we had a leader that could pull that off.

 

[Black Swan]

Anybody come up with any ideas on how to get all of us a decent deal without killing each other yet? The re hash isn't going to work. And Sparrowhawk is correct. The fact certain pilots are being called into the chief pilots for minor things that are made up or magnified is the first tactic in the arsenal of Glass and Co. They are simply testing your resolve. This is proof they are seeing trouble ahead with the East pilots at least. They have stuck the stick in the cage too many times. The animals are going to fight back this time. Parker has completely underestimated the fact he has pushed things on both sides too far. East, and West. He got the idea in PHX when he "visited", he is seeing trouble East.

 

[cleardirect]

Oops...you forgot to add that that is your opinion....since you weren't there.

Honestly, the truth is that many of us had quit paying ALPA dues with the loss of our pensions, after no support, whatsoever, from ALPA National throughout our problems. With Delta and United being the majority at ALPA Natl and the whole industry hurting, they turned their backs on us, hoping that we would just go away, which would help the bottom lines at their companies. But we fooled them by voting them out eventually and giving up $8 billion in wages to not go away. Some brothers, eh?

Our local ALPA MEC was grasping anything they could to hang on to their positions and try to find some kind of answer, along with major feuds going on within the MEC....but the train had already left the station...months before. Most of what was transmitted by the MEC was their own desparate BS, not what the pilot group was thinking. The NIC was just where we finally found the true voice of the pilot group.

I personally had quit paying ALPA dues 9 months before NIC came out and never agreed to anything that ALPA had to offer after they turned their backs on us....including the flawed binding arbritraion.

You guys are quick to talk about being thrown under the bus.....that is exactly what ALPA did to us. That is why we are so adamant to fight over this....let the house burn for all we care!

Well what was it? Did US stop paying dues in 2003 after the pension loss or in 2007 when the Nicolau came out. Give us some numbers. How many stopped paying in 2003 and how many stopped paying in 2007? 1-2 30. As someone pointed out you think it is OK to stop paying union dues if they are not representing you? How many section 29 letters did ALPA send when you upstanding union brothers stopped paying? How many did usapa send?

Funny you talk about how ALPA leaders were desperate to keep their positions and did everything they could. How about you apply that same thing to the current usapa leadership. Many distractions with law suits and false accusations of ID theft and a political safety campaign all designed to keep you east pilots from thinking about what a union is truly supposed to be doing. Creating unity and improving our contract. usapa and cleary and the rest have done just the opposite. They are working hard to keep their FPL jobs at the expense of everything else.

Review the history. RICO law suit. Failed cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. DFR suit lost on the merits cost millions of dollars. Won on ripeness but the suit is now just waiting. But it is still a suit it did not go away. The company DJ usapa wanted it dismissed it is now going to trial. The status quo will most likely get dismissed. The ID theft. usapa has known about this for a long time. Other than spending more money deposing a pilot and many many updates telling the members that someone is going to jail what has happened? What has usapa done to protect any of you? Has anyone's ID been stolen? Distractions nothing but distractions.

What has usapa accomplished? They have keep an arbitration off the property so far. That is it.

BTW when you stop paying union dues you no longer have a say in what happens. So when you say you never agreed to what ALPA had to offer. You did not matter since you were not a member. Think before you post.

 

[nic4us]

So are you saying you did pick AWA over SWA? Are you saying that AWA's growth during your time period outran SWA's? Yeah, that's the ticket!

Our TA provided for separate ops, so what each side delivered, is what each side got. The east has shrunk more than the west since May 5, 2005, but still upgraded, recalled and hired pilots mostly because of attrition. The west had downgraded and furloughed pilots because they didn't have the attrition to outrun their shrinkage like we did. Anyone with half a brain knows that was coming for the west merger or not, and the guys running the thing say it would have been worse absent the merger. This extended separate ops period has shown you that what you thought you career would be like was wrong. You don't really believe AWA could have survived the period since 2005 unscathed do you?

The east pilots that bailed on US to go to AWA made a bad choice. I can see why they would be angry with THEIR decision, but it shouldn't make them mad at us. They gambled/invested and lost.

Complete BS!

What you are convieniently leaving out is that it was the east bussiness model that was fatally flawed and needed reorganizing. When LCC need to draw down, they took the West to absolute fleet min, furloughinng a disproportionate 10% of the west while only furloughing 3% of the east. Attrition goes a long way when you do not have to share in the displacements.

What was coming for the West absent the merger may have been worse than the 2008 furloughs, but what was coming for the east absent the merger was 2800 permanent furloughs added to the 1800 already on the street with zero expectation of getting their job back.

The pilots who took employment at AWA once furloughed from AAA made the right decision. They should have no regrets. It is the after the fact re-write of history, and BS like your post that I would expect pisses them off. They resigned their AAA recall rites AFTER the Nic was published, and their employed, prosperous AWA self, was indeed senior to their unemployed (no recall expectation) AAA self. Now the usapa supporters want to steal their job, and say "oh, well, you should have taken your east recall and stole your own job from yourself, the way we usapa maggots intend to do!"


Just a reminder. Damages started Aug 2008, and SS and retirement income is garnishable.

 

[cleardirect]

B.S. Another LIE from your leaders, but hey, if it keeps you sending in the checks what do they care about the truth?

A lot of us knew the process was flawed, just as I know a lot of US government policies are flawed but I can't change. Do you remember that we merged with the Shuttle and DOH wasn't even our position? How about the near merger with UA? You think ALPA merger policy ever came up?

WE WERE NOT PROMISED DOH IN THIS MERGER! If you won't learn the truth at least stop spreading the lies. :angry:

Really! You were not promised DOH during a neutral third party arbitration. But now you think you can come and steal it through greater numbers and intimidation.

So if you can not get what you want through the process screw the process and just go take what you want. Interesting view on fairness and unity. A east usapa unionist if there ever was one.

I tell you what you go and tell all the other unions out there that east pilots and usapa are taking what you never were promised during arbitration and that you are going to take it from a minority group. See how that goes over in the union brotherhood.

 

[Pi brat]

The center of the universe has just been discovered...

LOA 93 observer I have to give you one thing, despite being made a fool of over and over again, you never give up.

 

[nic4us]

Dude,

What are you smoking. You won a lottery ticket at East pilot expense and you see nothing wrong with throwing guys who now have over 23 years of service, that's one number seniority to Colello, Joe Monda, under the bus.


The reason PHX is no longer profitable for the West is because of saddling the east higher cost on the West operation..i.e. "because of the merger". Please explain....You have the same employee contract you have always had. How is your cost higher?

We saved the West.... When all is said and done and the smoke clears that truth shines thru. Momma, says that which don't kill you makes you stronger. She was right. The east almost died but after what we gave up, it just made those sacrifices have that much more impact. The East is carrying the West. The East is where the money is made.

You say that long ago management talked about what they thought was equitable in seniority integrations. You fail however in your posts to explain what management is saying now. The West is 30% to big. It is not profitable. The scheduling is a mess because the hub is a mess and the only thing that keeps PHX afloat in its present form is the transition agreement.

So when PHX sinks slowly into the West you want East pilots to pay for that...Dream on.

Oh' and even Wake said West furloughed pilots had no right to East jobs. Your lawyers didn't even show up to the arbitration to make that case to a neutral in count II of Addington.

Keep smoking that cactus dude....

Whatever rationalization helps you get through the regret of having to steal anothers job to promote yourself.


Hope ypu had a great Father's Day....I did.

 

[Pi brat]

Complete BS!

What you are convieniently leaving out is that it was the east bussiness model that was fatally flawed and needed reorganizing. When LCC need to draw down, they took the West to absolute fleet min, furloughinng a disproportionate 10% of the west while only furloughing 3% of the east. Attrition goes a long way when you do not have to share in the displacements.

What was coming for the West absent the merger may have been worse than the 2008 furloughs, but what was coming for the east absent the merger was 2800 permanent furloughs added to the 1800 already on the street with zero expectation of getting their job back.

The pilots who took employment at AWA once furloughed from AAA made the right decision. They should have no regrets. It is the after the fact re-write of history, and BS like your post that I would expect pisses them off. They resigned their AAA recall rites AFTER the Nic was published, and their employed, prosperous AWA self, was indeed senior to their unemployed (no recall expectation) AAA self. Now the usapa supporters want to steal their job, and say "oh, well, you should have taken your east recall and stole your own job from yourself, the way we usapa maggots intend to do!"


Just a reminder. Damages started Aug 2008, and SS and retirement income is garnishable.

No Nic, you are wrong and it has been shown over and over again. Since May '05 the east has lost more hulls than the west-FACT.

If they made the right decision, how come one of them that was just a little junior to me here is on furlough and I'm an AB captain? That's some logic you have there boss.

It's your opinion that damages will start in '08, I disagree. I think the court rulings and the TA calling for separate ops until a joint contract is RATIFIED will take care of that, but who knows? We'll see.

 

[cleardirect]

No Nic, you are wrong and it has been shown over and over again. Since May '05 the east has lost more hulls than the west-FACT.

If they made the right decision, how come one of them that was just a little junior to me here is on furlough and I'm an AB captain? That's some logic you have there boss.

It's your opinion that damages will start in '08, I disagree. I think the court rulings and the TA calling for separate ops until a joint contract is RATIFIED will take care of that, but who knows? We'll see.

When you say that the east has lost more hulls. Did you include the 25 190's or did you ignore those?

 

[Pi brat]

When you say that the east has lost more hulls. Did you include the 25 190's or did you ignore those?

Good Lord how many times have we been through this? I meant to include them, but there are only 15 left now. We are about 218 vs 270. How about you? Have you lost 52 hulls? If so, I will admit I'm wrong.

 

[Black Swan]

All of the history now means nothing. The only way out of this is to pay longevity. Then you, or I can pull gear for anyone who wants to take the left seat. And bid whatever equip. you want. Each year on the property gets you this much $$$.And vacation also. And the rate better be darn good. Both sides are giving away their professional experience.

 

[cleardirect]

All of the history now means nothing. The only way out of this is to pay longevity. Then you, or I can pull gear for anyone who wants to take the left seat. And bid whatever equip. you want. Each year on the property gets you this much $$$.And vacation also. And the rate better be darn good. Both sides are giving away their professional experience.

Unless the east has some crazy contract. you do get paid by longevity. You just happen to be topped out in the F/O seat. When this is all done you will still be in the F/O seat just making a better rate. If you had accepted the Nicolau 4 years ago you could have been making that rate. But it is your choice. LOA 93 or new rate. It is all based on longevity.

 

[prechilill]

LOA 93 observer I have to give you one thing, despite being made a fool of over and over again, you never give up.

?Que?

I thought we were friends?

 

[Black Swan]

Unless the east has some crazy contract. you do get paid by longevity. You just happen to be topped out in the F/O seat. When this is all done you will still be in the F/O seat just making a better rate. If you had accepted the Nicolau 4 years ago you could have been making that rate. But it is your choice. LOA 93 or new rate. It is all based on longevity.

You enjoy being so smarmy all the time, it is no wonder most things here never move. Enjoy what you have also. I can see why things will never change. Here is what the future holds the way I see it: continued crew room videos, with each side becoming more and more frustrated. And Doug Parker enjoying every minute of it. Have fun with that!

 

[Pi brat]

?Que?

I thought we were friends?

Thanks for the laugh babe! I thought we were going to keep that secret to ourselves!