US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

You enjoy being so smarmy all the time, it is no wonder most things here never move. Enjoy what you have also. I can see why things will never change. Here is what the future holds the way I see it: continued crew room videos, with each side becoming more and more frustrated. And Doug Parker enjoying every minute of it. Have fun with that!

So you do get paid on longevity.

The rest of your post is just you running your mouth.

 

[Pi brat]

You enjoy being so smarmy all the time, it is no wonder most things here never move. Enjoy what you have also. I can see why things will never change. Here is what the future holds the way I see it: continued crew room videos, with each side becoming more and more frustrated. And Doug Parker enjoying every minute of it. Have fun with that!

After countless round and rounds with this guy, I really think he doesn't understand what you are getting at.

 

[cleardirect]

After countless round and rounds with this guy, I really think he doesn't understand what you are getting at.

Why don't you explain it. You do get paid by longevity. What is it that you think that you are entitled to now?

 

[SparrowHawk]

Anybody come up with any ideas on how to get all of us a decent deal without killing each other yet? The re hash isn't going to work. And Sparrowhawk is correct. The fact certain pilots are being called into the chief pilots for minor things that are made up or magnified is the first tactic in the arsenal of Glass and Co. They are simply testing your resolve. This is proof they are seeing trouble ahead with the East pilots at least. They have stuck the stick in the cage too many times. The animals are going to fight back this time. Parker has completely underestimated the fact he has pushed things on both sides too far. East, and West. He got the idea in PHX when he "visited", he is seeing trouble East.

Folks!! Head the warning. First go around in BK1 I got to observe Mr Glass in action and he bludgeoned EVERY single union. The only union that even came close to holding firm was the AFA and despite their resolve he has created an atmosphere of distrust which leads to non stop recall elections and has IMO permanently damaged the AFA for the foreseeable future.

Now his has his sights set on you and you're divided, VERY DIVIDED! Your only hope IMO is for US/Glass to do or attempt something so vile and despicable as to enrage both East & West to the point where the actions galvanize the Pilots into action as a united group.

He's coming to get you and in your current condition you will not be able to defend your positions much less go on the offensive. He will break laws, say anything, do anything to enhance US's position. Ask the guys who were at US pre BK #1 and ask what happened and you'll gain a lot of insight as to why some of the stuff happening now is happening. It may not be right, but at least you get where they're coming from.

IMO you'd be better off putting two pieces of paper in a hat one with DOH on it and the other NIC, walk down to ramp and have someone pull one piece out and that's what you live with. Then you can unite and take on Jerry Glass and maybe gain a draw or even a victory.

 

[Pi brat]

Why don't you explain it. You do get paid by longevity. What is it that you think that you are entitled to now?

Ok, here is what I assumed BS was talking about since I've heard this thought thrown around before. Yes, we are paid by longevity, but it tops out at, what, 12 years? (been a while for most of us over here). So the idea is to change the pay structure, running longevity increases out past 20 years so that upgrading to captain is not so critical to your income. I'd guess that 8-9 out of 10 of us over here don't care as much what seat we are in, we just want to the most money, and time off that a higher seniority number brings. BS can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[mrbreeze]

Well what was it? Did US stop paying dues in 2003 after the pension loss or in 2007 when the Nicolau came out. Give us some numbers. How many stopped paying in 2003 and how many stopped paying in 2007? 1-2 30. As someone pointed out you think it is OK to stop paying union dues if they are not representing you? How many section 29 letters did ALPA send when you upstanding union brothers stopped paying? How many did usapa send?

Funny you talk about how ALPA leaders were desperate to keep their positions and did everything they could. How about you apply that same thing to the current usapa leadership. Many distractions with law suits and false accusations of ID theft and a political safety campaign all designed to keep you east pilots from thinking about what a union is truly supposed to be doing. Creating unity and improving our contract. usapa and cleary and the rest have done just the opposite. They are working hard to keep their FPL jobs at the expense of everything else.

Review the history. RICO law suit. Failed cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. DFR suit lost on the merits cost millions of dollars. Won on ripeness but the suit is now just waiting. But it is still a suit it did not go away. The company DJ usapa wanted it dismissed it is now going to trial. The status quo will most likely get dismissed. The ID theft. usapa has known about this for a long time. Other than spending more money deposing a pilot and many many updates telling the members that someone is going to jail what has happened? What has usapa done to protect any of you? Has anyone's ID been stolen? Distractions nothing but distractions.

What has usapa accomplished? They have keep an arbitration off the property so far. That is it.

BTW when you stop paying union dues you no longer have a say in what happens. So when you say you never agreed to what ALPA had to offer. You did not matter since you were not a member. Think before you post.

Your changing the subject here.

My post was in response to flyinawa's post. I said nothing about judging what was right or wrong. I just painted a picture of what it was like during the nuclear meltdown at the end of ALPA. Things were out of control.....that's all. Geez...thanks for trying to understand....hard to accept the truth?

 

[Al Legheny]

quote name='nic4us' timestamp='1308582030' post='809388']
Whatever rationalization helps you get through the regret of having to steal anothers job to promote yourself.


Hope ypu had a great Father's Day....I did.
[/quote]

It's not rationalization....It's a fact. The early financial reports, the commentary from company management, the commentary from the financial community all confirms it. US Airways East was in terrible financial shape but had a good product and a very viable franchise. The airline needed to be smaller with a smaller route strucutre. The America West system has structural and marketing deficiencies that only a downsizing will correct. Parker, Kirby and Isom keep telling this to you to your faces in crew room videos and you all state that it isn't true, it must be the East causing your problems.


Once US Airwasy was restructured the money from the outsude, flowed into the deal to make it work. America Wes did not have enough in the bank to fund the deal they were headed for chapter 11.

All the heavy structural lifting was done in two chapter 11 filings. the first chapter 11 filing by "just call me Dave Seigle," did not have the intended effect. The second filing produced LOA 93. You guys all love to tout LOA 93 as are great millstone around the neck of the East pilots. So be it. LOA 93 is why YOU have a job. Your West airline cannot stand alone, the East can.

Your West airline needst to be much smaller and you would need to take very large pay cuts to make it work. You would need to be working on LOA 93 yourselves just to stay in business.

Yes the truth will set you free....You are afloat because of the sacrifices the East employees made in two Chapter 11 filings to keep their company afloat. You are floating on that same life boat you just don't want to recognize it.

You then turn to the guy who built yout he life boat and say that his efforts to keep you afloat are all worthless because a failed National organization decided that it wasn't important that some did all the work before you got in the boat with them.

They you wonder why they just want to keep what they bought and paid for in the pain and suffering of two trips thru chapter 11?

We don't want what ever you have...we just want what we brought to the table. It's not a rationalization....It's a FACT!

 

[767jetz]

The nerve of V, he has absolutely no right to be angry losing 17 years of seniority to a probationary new hire. I just cant believe he just doesn't get it. V should be treated as a new hire just as all those poor furloughed guys and gals.

And the twisted reasoning and self justification continues with no sign of reality in sight.

In you sarcastic example, he did not LOSE 17 years. Those 17 years bought him a JUNIOR reserve F/O position on the smallest, lowest paying fleet you had. Exactly what he got with the nic. The reason you guys have such a problem is that you keep looking over everyone's shoulder at what everyone else has, rather than seeing what you actually had. Under Nic it hasn't changed. What's that you say? Attrition? Oh yeah, Nic gave you 2/3 of that too, which is what you brought to the marriage? Wide bodies? Nic gave you 517 on top for that. May not be perfect, but isn't the tragedy you love to pretend it is. Especially considering you didn't come to the table with any viable alternatives. The only tragedy is your self constructed ideal that you should get whatever YOU want and have the right to impose your will on other's... negotiation, mediation, and arbitration be damned.

 

[Pi brat]

Under Nic it hasn't changed. What's that you say?

It DOES change things. What the 17 year guy brought was the bottom position, but going forward when the massive number of guys that were hired all around the same time leave, the 17 year guys seniority would rocket up. Nic changes that by putting a large number of mostly younger people ahead of them, so that his career trajectory is permanently flat.

How does Nic's method of protecting the widebodies help the 17 year guy that would have been an A330 capt on a standalone east list but not the NIC?

 

[Metroyet]

How does Nic's method of protecting the widebodies help the 17 year guy that would have been an A330 capt on a standalone east list but not the NIC?

Easy. Without the Nic. Without the merger, your most entitled 17 year guy was NEVER going to get on the 330 unless it was the 3:30 bus to walmart to start his new career.

You guys are the masters of hind sight and rewritable history. See you in court...for the next several years. Until then, no contract. Period...no matter how much you all stomp your feet and hold your cowardly yellow lanyarded breaths.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How does Nic's method of protecting the widebodies help the 17 year guy that would have been an A330 capt on a standalone east list but not the NIC?

Oh Knower of All and Reviser of History, that 17 year guy wouldn't have been an A330 capt on a standalone east list - he would have been on the street along with every other east pilot.

All of you guys trying to justify DOH by post-merger events are just illuminating how right Nic was - the east pilots stood to gain a lot more from the merger than the west pilots. If that had not been the case, the balance of equities might have more favored DOH with extensive C&R's. But pretending that it wasn't the case doesn't change the facts - east was on the way to liquidation without the merger.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Easy. Without the Nic. Without the merger, your most entitled 17 year guy was NEVER going to get on the 330 unless it was the 3:30 bus to walmart to start his new career.

You guys are the masters of hind sight and rewritable history. See you in court...for the next several years. Until then, no contract. Period...no matter how much you all stomp your feet and hold your cowardly yellow lanyarded breaths.

Same for the weties bud, same for the westies. If AWA did survive, what were the chances of them ever flying an A330 to Europe from PHL or CLT?

Why are you going to be in court? To hold you wife's hand as she cries about not being in her 330 yet?

 

[Pi brat]

Oh Knower of All and Reviser of History, that 17 year guy wouldn't have been an A330 capt on a standalone east list - he would have been on the street along with every other east pilot.

All of you guys trying to justify DOH by post-merger events are just illuminating how right Nic was - the east pilots stood to gain a lot more from the merger than the west pilots. If that had not been the case, the balance of equities might have more favored DOH with extensive C&R's. But pretending that it wasn't the case doesn't change the facts - east was on the way to liquidation without the merger.

Jim

Hey AW, we've missed you! I thought after that embarrassing episode of outing the wrong guy, even after I told you that you had the wrong guy, you might stay gone. Lucky us that you have no shame.

Is the 17 year guy on the street? Would AWA have been flying them PHL/CLT to Europe?

US may have been on it's way to liquidation without the merger, I was banking on it. AWA was on its way to AT LEAST being a much smaller airline, if not gone too. We were in similar if not the same boats. Nic got it wrong, there is no reason these snot nosed guys deserved what he wanted to give them. PERIOD.

And once again you are wrong. Seems like you would get tired of that. I have never tried to justify DOH, just pointing out how screwed up the Nic was.

 

[Metroyet]

Same for the weties bud, same for the westies. If AWA did survive, what were the chances of them ever flying an A330 to Europe form PHL or CLT?

That's an assumption that you will never be able to prove. The fact is amw paid off the atsb loans early. They recalled and were hiring. They had 20 something jets on order and were turning a profit. Whatever Parker has said to the contrary smacks of placating the east. He has more of idea of the future in 2005 any anybody else. Again. An irrefutable fact, unless youre comfortable arguing Parkers clairvoyance.

There is no question you were toast. None. No speculation, no clairvoyance. Fact. Btw, very few people give a crap about the 330. Job 1 is keeping the job the west had, not handing it over to a 2.5year active service, 6+ year multiple-round furlough working for a twice bk airline swirling the toilet bowl.

 

[Pi brat]

That's an assumption that you will never be able to prove. The fact is amw paid off the atsb loans early. They recalled and were hiring. They had 20 something jets on order and were turning a profit. Whatever Parker has said to the contrary smacks of placating the east. He has more of idea of the future in 2005 any anybody else. Again. An irrefutable fact, unless youre comfortable arguing Parkers clairvoyance.

There is no question you were toast. None. No speculation, no clairvoyance. Fact. Btw, very few people give a crap about the 330. Job 1 is keeping the job the west had, not handing it over to a 2.5year active service, 6+ year multiple-round furlough working for a twice bk airline swirling the toilet bowl.

No question we were toast, huh? I just don't feel toasty today. Should I bother to answer my phone when I go back on call Wed? How come I flew an A321 Saturday with US Airways painted on it? If I almost step out in front of a bus but stop, am I still dead? Do I stop doing the things in life that I did before and give everything to someone else? Maybe I should give everything to the nephew of the guy that warned me about the bus because that makes about as much sense as the windfall Nic gave the west pilots. A group that at least 99 out of 100 would have done almost anything to stop the merger and almost nothing to make it happen.

AWA paid of it's ATSB loans with the money raised by the merger! It did not have the cash to pay them off. They made some money in some quarters prior to the merger(mostly on fuel hedging) but had a loss in the quarter the merger closed. Their bread was being buttered to be put in the toaster, it's just you guys that refuse to accept it.

BTW, US Airways had 29 aircraft on "firm" order according to the Nic vs. the 19 AWA had. Maybe you should read it sometime!