US Pilots Labor Discussion

[SparrowHawk]

That's an assumption that you will never be able to prove. The fact is amw paid off the atsb loans early. They recalled and were hiring. They had 20 something jets on order and were turning a profit. Whatever Parker has said to the contrary smacks of placating the east. He has more of idea of the future in 2005 any anybody else. Again. An irrefutable fact, unless youre comfortable arguing Parkers clairvoyance.

There is no question you were toast. None. No speculation, no clairvoyance. Fact. Btw, very few people give a crap about the 330. Job 1 is keeping the job the west had, not handing it over to a 2.5year active service, 6+ year multiple-round furlough working for a twice bk airline swirling the toilet bowl.

well it's nice to see the who bought/merged with whom debate still rages. The dead bang fact is that no merger, no US or HP. Doug said so himself, not that his word is worth a crap. HP was in slightly better shape and truth is if had both managed to survive as stand alone carriers the fuel run up in 2008 would have crushed them anyhow as it would have been highly unlikely that two financially wounded airlines would have been able to build up the cash required to withstand the crunch. So in the final analysis the debate while still raging is a moot point as the end result is had there not been a merger, by early 2009 both would be toast.

See here you are, still fighting the last war, while Jerry Glass is shining up his Pearl Handled Pistols preparing to gun you down, while you're at the dance hall lamenting the good old days. Unlike the westerns there will be no Gary Cooper at High Noon to rescue you.

Or put another way, you're the US Navy docked at Pearl Harbor and Jerry Glass is the Japanese fleet and unlike history there will be no battle of Midway after for redemption.

You have but one choice to salvage your careers IMO and that is to take a deep breath, swallow your pride and ego, hold your nose and do a deal that unites your group against the Union Busters who are coming for you. Good, Bad or indifferent you are now in a position where your only options remaining is to pick the one that "Sucks Less"

 

[Metroyet]

Dupe.

 

[Metroyet]

You have but one choice to salvage your careers IMO and that is to take a deep breath, swallow your pride and ego, hold your nose and do a deal that unites your group against the Union Busters who are coming for you. Good, Bad or indifferent you are now in a position where your only options remaining is to pick the one that "Sucks Less"

No offense intended but you seem to have exactly zero understanding of what is happening here. There is no west...legally. There is no one to take the " deep breath". This is 100% on usapa. Be specific. Exactly what do you think should be done here? Jerry Glass isn't the bogey man. No fear of him out west.

So let's hear it. What's the "less sucky" thing?

 

[Pi brat]

well it's nice to see the who bought/merged with whom debate still rages. The dead bang fact is that no merger, no US or HP. Doug said so himself, not that his word is worth a crap. HP was in slightly better shape and truth is if had both managed to survive as stand alone carriers the fuel run up in 2008 would have crushed them anyhow as it would have been highly unlikely that two financially wounded airlines would have been able to build up the cash required to withstand the crunch. So in the final analysis the debate while still raging is a moot point as the end result is had there not been a merger, by early 2009 both would be toast.

See here you are, still fighting the last war, while Jerry Glass is shining up his Pearl Handled Pistols preparing to gun you down, while you're at the dance hall lamenting the good old days. Unlike the westerns there will be no Gary Cooper at High Noon to rescue you.

Or put another way, you're the US Navy docked at Pearl Harbor and Jerry Glass is the Japanese fleet and unlike history there will be no battle of Midway after for redemption.

You have but one choice to salvage your careers IMO and that is to take a deep breath, swallow your pride and ego, hold your nose and do a deal that unites your group against the Union Busters who are coming for you. Good, Bad or indifferent you are now in a position where your only options remaining is to pick the one that "Sucks Less"

I agree that Glass and the Co will do everything to get us, but the two pilot groups are too dug in to do anything about it. Look no farther that metroyet's "you don't know what you are talking about" post. We will pay the price.

Thanks for trying and your support.

 

[end_of_alpa]

well it's nice to see the who bought/merged with whom debate still rages. The dead bang fact is that no merger, no US or HP. Doug said so himself, not that his word is worth a crap. HP was in slightly better shape and truth is if had both managed to survive as stand alone carriers the fuel run up in 2008 would have crushed them anyhow as it would have been highly unlikely that two financially wounded airlines would have been able to build up the cash required to withstand the crunch. So in the final analysis the debate while still raging is a moot point as the end result is had there not been a merger, by early 2009 both would be toast.

See here you are, still fighting the last war, while Jerry Glass is shining up his Pearl Handled Pistols preparing to gun you down, while you're at the dance hall lamenting the good old days. Unlike the westerns there will be no Gary Cooper at High Noon to rescue you.

Or put another way, you're the US Navy docked at Pearl Harbor and Jerry Glass is the Japanese fleet and unlike history there will be no battle of Midway after for redemption.

You have but one choice to salvage your careers IMO and that is to take a deep breath, swallow your pride and ego, hold your nose and do a deal that unites your group against the Union Busters who are coming for you. Good, Bad or indifferent you are now in a position where your only options remaining is to pick the one that "Sucks Less"

Save your breath. The facts keep getting in their way. They've been told this only for the umpteenth time.

Pounding your head against the wall on their behalf just simply isn't worth it.

Good luck!

 

[end_of_alpa]

And the twisted reasoning and self justification continues with no sign of reality in sight.

In you sarcastic example, he did not LOSE 17 years. Those 17 years bought him a JUNIOR reserve F/O position on the smallest, lowest paying fleet you had. Exactly what he got with the nic. The reason you guys have such a problem is that you keep looking over everyone's shoulder at what everyone else has, rather than seeing what you actually had. Under Nic it hasn't changed. What's that you say? Attrition? Oh yeah, Nic gave you 2/3 of that too, which is what you brought to the marriage? Wide bodies? Nic gave you 517 on top for that. May not be perfect, but isn't the tragedy you love to pretend it is. Especially considering you didn't come to the table with any viable alternatives. The only tragedy is your self constructed ideal that you should get whatever YOU want and have the right to impose your will on other's... negotiation, mediation, and arbitration be damned.

You're right! So leave us alone already and go back to Chicago!

We will decide for ourselves.

Are you really a pilot for united???

 

[Pi brat]

Are you really a pilot for united???

Can't you tell? B)

 

[cleardirect]

Ok, here is what I assumed BS was talking about since I've heard this thought thrown around before. Yes, we are paid by longevity, but it tops out at, what, 12 years? (been a while for most of us over here). So the idea is to change the pay structure, running longevity increases out past 20 years so that upgrading to captain is not so critical to your income. I'd guess that 8-9 out of 10 of us over here don't care as much what seat we are in, we just want to the most money, and time off that a higher seniority number brings. BS can correct me if I'm wrong.

usapa has repeated again and again that they are looking for an industry standard contract. They even told the west checkairmen that they were above industry and would have to expect less. Now the east checkairman will get a raise but the west will give back.

So how in the world are you going to get usapa to ask for a non industry standard 20 or more year scale? Why would the company agree to a 20 year scale? Does anyone else in the industry have a 20 years scale?

Once again you guys want something for nothing. I guess you think you should be paid like a captain even though you are not a captain.

Now hang on a minute. Aren't you guys alway saying that it is not about the money it is about the morally right thing to do. That it was about the seat and upgrading. That seniority and LOS is all that matters? So it is about the money. Would you guys please pick a position and stick with it.

Is it about the money? If so take the Nicolau and let's get a contract. If it is not about the money than stick to LOA 93 and wait for your attrition or what ever you think you have in the future. If all seat pay more you can hang out in the right seat and get your life style and time off. But what you keep telling us is that east pilots want all the money, all the seniority and all the time off.

What is it boys, industry standard with a 12 years longevity pay scale or something no one else has? What is it money or seniority?

 

[cynic]

BTW, US Airways had 29 aircraft on "firm" order according to the Nic vs. the 19 AWA had. Maybe you should read it sometime!

Does that include the A318s that still haven't been (nor will they ever be) delivered?

 

[Pi brat]

Does that include the A318s that still haven't been (nor will they ever be) delivered?

19 A320s and 10 A330s according to St. Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

usapa has repeated again and again that they are looking for an industry standard contract. They even told the west checkairmen that they were above industry and would have to expect less. Now the east checkairman will get a raise but the west will give back.

So how in the world are you going to get usapa to ask for a non industry standard 20 or more year scale? Why would the company agree to a 20 year scale? Does anyone else in the industry have a 20 years scale?

Once again you guys want something for nothing. I guess you think you should be paid like a captain even though you are not a captain.

Now hang on a minute. Aren't you guys alway saying that it is not about the money it is about the morally right thing to do. That it was about the seat and upgrading. That seniority and LOS is all that matters? So it is about the money. Would you guys please pick a position and stick with it.

Is it about the money? If so take the Nicolau and let's get a contract. If it is not about the money than stick to LOA 93 and wait for your attrition or what ever you think you have in the future. If all seat pay more you can hang out in the right seat and get your life style and time off. But what you keep telling us is that east pilots want all the money, all the seniority and all the time off.

What is it boys, industry standard with a 12 years longevity pay scale or something no one else has? What is it money or seniority?

I knew it was a mistake trying to explain something to you.

 

[cleardirect]

Folks!! Head the warning. First go around in BK1 I got to observe Mr Glass in action and he bludgeoned EVERY single union. The only union that even came close to holding firm was the AFA and despite their resolve he has created an atmosphere of distrust which leads to non stop recall elections and has IMO permanently damaged the AFA for the foreseeable future.

Now his has his sights set on you and you're divided, VERY DIVIDED! Your only hope IMO is for US/Glass to do or attempt something so vile and despicable as to enrage both East & West to the point where the actions galvanize the Pilots into action as a united group.

He's coming to get you and in your current condition you will not be able to defend your positions much less go on the offensive. He will break laws, say anything, do anything to enhance US's position. Ask the guys who were at US pre BK #1 and ask what happened and you'll gain a lot of insight as to why some of the stuff happening now is happening. It may not be right, but at least you get where they're coming from.

IMO you'd be better off putting two pieces of paper in a hat one with DOH on it and the other NIC, walk down to ramp and have someone pull one piece out and that's what you live with. Then you can unite and take on Jerry Glass and maybe gain a draw or even a victory.

You guys seem deathly afraid of Jerry Glass. The west has dealt with him. He is a professional nothing more. The only reason to be afraid of him is if you are outgunned, outclassed or out smarted. He did that to ALPA but east pilots blame ALPA for everything. But usapa is supposed to be better and smarter. They hired a professional too. Why should anyone be concerned about Jerry Glass we have the best NAC that King Kleary could find that were friends of his. With all of their experience and the new members just added Glass should be shaking now, right. Sarcasium intended.

But really usapa was going to do it better than ALPA. Are you not convinced? Still afraid of Glass?

 

[Pi brat]

The west has dealt with him. He is a professional nothing more.

At that time you guys really didn't have much to lose, did you?

 

[BoeingBoy]

From the same post no less:

Nic got it wrong, there is no reason these snot nosed guys deserved what he wanted to give them. PERIOD.

And once again you are wrong. Seems like you would get tired of that. I have never tried to justify DOH, just pointing out how screwed up the Nic was.

So the "snot nosed guys" out west don't deserve relative position, but you've never (really, never?) tried to justify DOH.....

Jim

ps - still defending Nosum I see.....

 

[luvthe9]

Kudos to the CLT chief pilots office, they are fed up with Schmidt and the whole Tempe group, after the whipping they took today, at least they realize now there is a real safety issue here at this company. Keep up the good work it won't be much longer hopefully till we are rid of the west.!!!!!