US Pilots Labor Discussion

[delldude]

I'm Smiling like the freakin' Cheshire Cat here! FINALLY somebody is waking up to the reality of the situation. $15,000,000 is a lot of money to waste in a legal pissing match.

Beside the current F/A contract, why do you think Jerry Glass is on the job. He's there to break you.

Ahhh..........that sent a bad deja Vu kink up my spine Hawk.... :huh:

 

[toganoflex]

Obviously a west CSR with a dog in the fight. Like the one who staged an attack in PHX against an east captain. Fortunately, there were witnesses to the fraud. Amazing, she was married to a west capt. Talk about fraud. She is now in hot water. Who cares what Parker thinks? He is the laughing stock of the industry. Actually had to serve jail time while CEO, for a DUI. What a low life. At least the east pilots care enough about the safety of their customers that they actually hold the line where others are willing to cross it for an on time departure solely for their own bonuses. Remember, SAFETY FIRST. A SAFE FLIGHT, IS NO ACCIDENT!

Safety? What do you guys know about safety?

You've killed so many passengers at the old US Airways your managers had to put together Operation Restore Confidence (remember that one) and hope you didn't put another one into the ground or water.

You can't stay on taxiways, keep wingtips out of other aircraft's tails, etc. You guys are one accident after another. And now you use safety to hide an obvious work action.

Please - safety. You guys ran the AI Department at ALPA because you were the ones that had the most experience killing people.

You guys can't even land an aircraft softly enough (TPA). Poor Billy Mays.

How about that non-stop to Flushing Bay?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/us_airways_accidents_then_and.html

 

[end_of_alpa]

Pi;
Not too bad. We actually should have the numbers to attempt changes in the constitution without any help. That said, I have handed out a dozen or so petitions to east pilots and will continue to do so. One I know personally knows the Nicolau will be the seniority list. He took all three petitions and sent them in.

I have torn up the seniority petition in front of yellow lanyard wearers and asked "Are you truly pleased with USAPA and Mike Cleary's running said "union"?..."Are you OK with him doing ANYTHING that he deems necessary WITHOUT the specific approval of the BPR?"...etc. These pilots agreed to take the petitions and read the content.

I don't know when we will have enough, but the response is doing well and is steady. I'm not an ALPA fan myself, and I think that when the courts ultimately tell the parties what is legally required...I think we could be a very effective independent union. Right now the leader is in his office stating ....."I can't be out of money, I still have checks!". One of my biggest concerns is that we are NOT prepared for another merger (financially OR strategically). We have collectively spent over 15 Million dollars (both sides) to first get to the Nicolau Award, and now for you to try and dodge the Nicolau Award (while I and my group defend it). In the meantime we have all watched as the economic window to a much improved contract SLAM SHUT. If this keeps up, the window will open and shut again.

The west group will not lay down. At some point the courts will tell Doug that he either must use the Nicolau or face the possibility of a hybrid DFR lawsuit. Doug is simply looking for the courts to do his work for him....he walks in to a room in a light blue shirt and chinos and says..."Sorry guys...this is what the courts say I have to do...." Which way do you REALLY think the courts are going to ultimately lean? I don't think it's that tough of a guess.

The East Group will not lay down, either. At some point the courts will tell YOU that it is NOT RIPE until a CBA is ratified. It will also tell you that a "third" party like AOL does not have an "ex-officio" position in USAPA. For that matter, neither does the court. It will eventually get dismissed in Silvers court or ultimately in the ninth. Personally, I believe that if Silver doesn't dismiss it and it goes higher I see a Supreme Court review because to invoke a declaratory judgment in the midst of collective bargaining can only bring additional court interference in future CB negotiations at other companies.

Oh, and by the way, here is what conditions must be argued in a hybrid DFR 301 suit....read it carefully:

"Elements of a Hybrid § 301/DFR Claim"

To establish a hybrid § 301/DFR claim, a plaintiff must prove both
(1) that the employer breached a collective bargaining agreement and
(2) that the union breached its duty of fair representation vis-a-vis the union members(Addington).  

See DelCostello v. Int'l Bhd. of Teamsters, 462 U.S. 151, 164-65, 103 S.Ct. 2281, 76 L.Ed.2d 476 (1983).  

The plaintiff (which you were in DFR I) may sue the union or the employer, or both, but must allege violations on the part of both. You STILL have to prove BOTH union and employer, even if your suiing just one. The declaratory judgement has NO PLACE in collective bargaining. We'll see.

As far as "reformusapa" or Army of Leonidas Lite, I don't believe that either Burman or Holmes are going to carry much weight getting endorsements from people like Tory Vaughan or the Caped Marauder, or "he who shall not be named". I disagree with your accessment of the numbers and all I can say is "show me". I'll believe it when I see it. Tory personally believes the nic will be it, but he is only ONE. Most everyone else overhere KNOWS that it's not the opinion, it's the VOTE.

I really hope you guys keep tilting at the windmills.

If you want some "lite" reading, I'll leave you with this case:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1363898.html

Read the discussion about DFR, etc. DFR II, if and when it comes, will be a hurdle that will prove to be insurmountable.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Safety? What do you guys know about safety?

You've killed so many passengers at the old US Airways your managers had to put together Operation Restore Confidence (remember that one) and hope you didn't put another one into the ground or water.

You can't stay on taxiways, keep wingtips out of other aircraft's tails, etc. You guys are one accident after another. And now you use safety to hide an obvious work action.

Please - safety. You guys ran the AI Department at ALPA because you were the ones that had the most experience killing people.

You guys can't even land an aircraft softly enough (TPA). Poor Billy Mays.

How about that non-stop to Flushing Bay?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/us_airways_accidents_then_and.html

So, your running for the safety committee chairman position?

I know why pilots give pilots a bad name.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I'm Smiling like the freakin' Cheshire Cat here! FINALLY somebody is waking up to the reality of the situation. $15,000,000 is a lot of money to waste in a legal pissing match.

Beside the current F/A contract, why do you think Jerry Glass is on the job. He's there to break you.

You're right. Democracy, or FREEDOM, isn't free.

I'm smiling too, because somehow NON-LABOR workers don't realize that this is about voting, about legality. Not about money.

Is it ok to send people to war to defend "freedom" but it's alos ok to sacrifice democracy for money.....

What a country. I hear Cuba needs a new dictator soon, Fidel's brother is getting ready to retire. I am sure nepotism is a requirement for despotism down there.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Ahhh..........that sent a bad deja Vu kink up my spine Hawk.... :huh:

Yeah!!! It's going to be just like Yogi Berra says "It's Deja Vu all over again".

It you watch the movie Matewan that I posted a few clips from there is a scene where Sheriff Sid Hatfield is siting in a cafe with the Mayor and and he very calmly with no emotion says to the mayor, "You know they come to kill me" Little has changed since the WV Coal Field Wars to today. US Airways with DP & SK are the Coal Operators, Jerry Glass is the Baldwin-Felts "Detective" (Gun Thugs) and USAPA is the fledgling UMW of A. Primary difference is there is no Joe Kenehan or Sid Hatfield type character at USAPA. Just the gun thugs (Glass)

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Sparrowhawk, are you familiar with the Ludlow Massacre as well? I've driven by the signs for it on I-25 many times over the years, having grown up in Colorado. I just ordered books about both on amazon last night.

 

[crazystnic]

Safety? What do you guys know about safety?

You've killed so many passengers at the old US Airways your managers had to put together Operation Restore Confidence (remember that one) and hope you didn't put another one into the ground or water.

You can't stay on taxiways, keep wingtips out of other aircraft's tails, etc. You guys are one accident after another. And now you use safety to hide an obvious work action.

Please - safety. You guys ran the AI Department at ALPA because you were the ones that had the most experience killing people.

You guys can't even land an aircraft softly enough (TPA). Poor Billy Mays.

How about that non-stop to Flushing Bay?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/us_airways_accidents_then_and.html

NICE..
those who don't think it could ever happen to them are surely to have it happen..

and Karma is a ####.

god rest those who have been lost.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

NICE..
those who don't think it could ever happen to them are surely to have it happen..

and Karma is a ####.

god rest those who have been lost.

Not all of us west guys agree with bringing that stuff up. Personally I cringe every time I see it being done. It's inexcusable in my mind.

Yes indeed, God rest those who have been lost.

 

[toganoflex]

So, your running for the safety committee chairman position?

I know why pilots give pilots a bad name.

Oh the hypocrisy!

An east pilot accusing others of giving pilots a bad name.

Ya, I won't lose any sleep over that one.

 

[toganoflex]

NICE..
those who don't think it could ever happen to them are surely to have it happen..

and Karma is a ####.

god rest those who have been lost.

You forgot to finish your sentence so allow me:

god rest those who have been lost due to the incompetence of east pilots.



Here's to hoping the east has finished killing its passengers.

 

[signals]

Since we're bringing up movies...I have to get the rights to the next Airplane movie B) The title would be-Airplane3D, the USumentary!...remember Stallone in FIST? What are we? FIST! Shouted the unionized workers.

I tend to come to this thread about once a year, because the song remains the same and it never ends. Last I heard the courts gave it to USAPA. I'm guessing that there were no make-up kisses!

As divided as you are, I can't understand how your airline keeps functioning. Doug must be marketing the concrete cement that is holding his house of cards together. Maybe WT can come and show me the figures as to why this is 😉

So when your Stallone shouts, "What are we?" You all can show a finger 😛 because that's what you are!

See ya next year!....maybe B)

 

[Metroyet]

Read the discussion about DFR, etc. DFR II, if and when it comes, will be a hurdle that will prove to be insurmountable.

Good luck.

No luck needed! Convincing a jury to Convict your scab union was a piece of cake the first time.
Twice as easy next time...if it gets that far. Imo Silver will end this via the company. Keep your scab CIRP team close!

 

[SparrowHawk]

Sparrowhawk, are you familiar with the Ludlow Massacre as well? I've driven by the signs for it on I-25 many times over the years, having grown up in Colorado. I just ordered books about both on amazon last night.

Not nearly as familiar as with Matewan. Around the time of the movie release I had made the acquaintance of three women, Ann, Maura & Hazel. Ann as it turned out was the great great niece of Sheriff Sid Hatfield, Maura is Joe Kenehan's Great Great Niece as well. Hazel was the late Appalachian singer who wrote and performed much of the music in Matewan.

So it was my friendship with these three ladies and their connection to Matewan and me. After that the struggles in the ABE area of PA got me further interested in the history of organized labor. Mack Trucks was in big trouble and the UAW was in an internal struggle that ultimately cost 1,800 Allentown jobs. I also got to see a Union Busting lawyer in action for the first time at Mack Trucks. The rancor and animosity between CEO Jack Curcio and UAW President Bill Casstevens was so bad they would not sit in the same room with each other. Making Federal Mediator William Usery walk across the hall to inform one side of the others latest proposal. It was amazing to be a fly on the wall to this debacle as it unfolded. I sold litigation support services so I got closer than most as an observer than I probably should have.

The above is the reason I rag on USAPA to pull their head out, unite and fight the real enemy. The Stubbornness of Bill Casstevens cost the workers at Mack their jobs simply because his ego wouldn't allow him to approve a contract that the locals had negotiated that he didn't personally like.

 

[Black Swan]

Yeah!!! It's going to be just like Yogi Berra says "It's Deja Vu all over again".

It you watch the movie Matewan that I posted a few clips from there is a scene where Sheriff Sid Hatfield is siting in a cafe with the Mayor and and he very calmly with no emotion says to the mayor, "You know they come to kill me" Little has changed since the WV Coal Field Wars to today. US Airways with DP & SK are the Coal Operators, Jerry Glass is the Baldwin-Felts "Detective" (Gun Thugs) and USAPA is the fledgling UMW of A. Primary difference is there is no Joe Kenehan or Sid Hatfield type character at USAPA. Just the gun thugs (Glass)

Hawk, I think you have got it wrong with USAPA and the east. If you read any of the posts from the CSR's - there seems to be some issue going on, but I really am not aware of it being what they say. But what they are saying is there is a disruption of the airline. So say the west pilots. I really don't know of any job action like they say. I do know the pilots are training like they fly, and flying like they train. Exactly what Flight Standards wants, and expects. That is what is going on. Seems like when you operate like that, it appears to cause some disruptions. Maybe they should change their mantra to "Fly like we want you to to get our bonuses, train the other way..." You seem to think Glass is going to have his way with us. I say you think wrong. I say the wheels are coming off this thing right now, all because the pilots are flying the letter of the FOM. They are way short on staffing. You have no idea of how short. They are literally out of F/O s on the International side in CLT and PHL on a daily basis. All you need is a bunch of summer weather, and it is all over. They are not prepared for it. Wait until they try and get people in on their days off. I just don't think in this day and age of caller ID, it will happen. Nobody asked them to short staff the airline. Nobody but them decided to cut maintenance in out stations.
As far as Glass getting concessions? You have got to be kidding. What could he even try and get? he already has the east at the lowest pay, and the west the next lowest in the industry. Neither is going to give an inch there. So what is he going to get? A big battle. And he is going to lose this time. The first loss is going to be the LOA 93 pay restoration, and we will see that in July hopefully. That one, has Glass' fingerprints all over it.I think they know they lost it already, and think Glass thinks he can negotiate his way out of the financial hit. I say nobody gives an INCH. So if you see a win there, you know Glass just got his first hit. I really don't know why he is here, but I can tell you a lot of pilots and flight attendants, and most likely mechanics would like to give him something right back this time.