US Pilots Labor Discussion

[toganoflex]

Fine here you go: YES....but still get to vote NO on a contract as is my right.......and
even get to vote for a new union if I want to.....

now....how about my question # 1 guy at Airtran gets to be the number 2 guy at SW even though seperated by
20 years..........is this OK....YES.....or .......NO.....after all that's what his seniority will BUY him at SW....a simple yes or no?????

NICDOA
NPJB

If that's what relative seniority dictates, then YES - with fences of course.

LOA93FTEFE
FTSSDR

 

[nic4us]

Fine here you go: YES....but still get to vote NO on a contract as is my right.......and
even get to vote for a new union if I want to.....

now....how about my question # 1 guy at Airtran gets to be the number 2 guy at SW even though seperated by
20 years..........is this OK....YES.....or .......NO.....after all that's what his seniority will BUY him at SW....a simple yes or no?????

NICDOA
NPJB

Actually, the answere to your SW/AirTran question goes like this.

Each case turns on its own merits.

You are already showing a prejudice in your question. Why would the #1 Airtran guy necessarily be #2? Why could he not be #1? We all know that the # 1 pilot at Airtran is not going to be #2 on a combined list because of the merits of the case. Factors other than his relative position will also weigh in. LOS, career earnings expectations, job protections etc...just like our integration. What his position and status earn him at Airtran will be calculated to reflect an equivelent position at the
COMBINED company. That is what his position and status buy him at the new company.

Why isn't the #1 AWA guy # 2 at LCC? He should have been #1 according to your SW comparison, not #518.

In any event comparing the SW aquisition of Airtran to our merger is apples and oranges.

But, if you need a simple yes or no...then the answere is if it ends up in binding arbitration and the arbitrator makes the #1 Airtan guy #2 on the combined list, is this OK??? the simple answer is YES, and not only is it okay, but it will stick, no matter how bad the SW guys throw a fit.

 

[mrbreeze]

Actually, the answere to your SW/AirTran question goes like this.

Each case turns on its own merits.

You are already showing a prejudice in your question. Why would the #1 Airtran guy necessarily be #2? Why could he not be #1? We all know that the # 1 pilot at Airtran is not going to be #2 on a combined list because of the merits of the case. Factors other than his relative position will also weigh in. LOS, career earnings expectations, job protections etc...just like our integration. What his position and status earn him at Airtran will be calculated to reflect an equivelent position at the
COMBINED company. That is what his position and status buy him at the new company.

Why isn't the #1 AWA guy # 2 at LCC? He should have been #1 according to your SW comparison, not #518.

In any event comparing the SW aquisition of Airtran to our merger is apples and oranges.

But, if you need a simple yes or no...then the answere is if it ends up in binding arbitration and the arbitrator makes the #1 Airtan guy #2 on the combined list, is this OK??? the simple answer is YES, and not only is it okay, but it will stick, no matter how bad the SW guys throw a fit.

While riding home on my flight today, I read the latest Leonidas piece of trash that is floating around. It details the history of this SLI integration from a very one sided point of view.

After I finished it, the thing that stuck in my mind was just how similar that writing is to the Wake trial......only one side of the coin was allowed to be viewed by the jury, with strick instructions from Wake to the jury. It was a sham all the way......the jury had no other way to rule.....what else could they say?

To anyone reading the AOL trash, it's the same kind of sham.....no mention of the Mid Atlantic problem that was left out by NIC, nothing about the discrepancy in years of service, the $8 billion that the East pilots gave up to keep their jobs, and on and on......fabricated BS.

You guys out West just keep wishing.......it will come true......sure "that's the ticket"

 

[mrbreeze]

Also, I ran into an old friend today, AB Captain.

He was told by a close friend that a couple of weeks ago there was an FFA inspector on his jumpseat who stated that they were aware of the animosity between the pilot groups and that they don't think the pilot groups will ever be allowed to work together.

Then my friend stated that just this last week, he had another inspector on his jumpseat. They got into the same discussion and the inspector made the same statement.....they will never let us work together.

I know this sounds a little vague and I can't mention names, but the sources are people I would put my money on.

breeze

 

[luvn737s]

time will tell.
but it will be a long time.
in the meantime we can enjoy our attrition...
separate ops, enjoy your money losing operation.

but this time expect the jury to hear how you put a new hire next to a 17 year non furloughed pilot...
No more hiding all the evidence....
the truth will set you free!

C'mon, are you really that ignorant of the issues in the Addington trial? The issue was not the fairness of the Nic, it was whether or not USAPA chose sides by substituting a DOH list instead of the arbitrated list that had been presented and in doing so they failed to represent the interests of all the west pilots.

They heard all the relevant evidence, and were not asked to pass judgement on whether or not USAPA was justified in choosing sides.

 

[toganoflex]

While riding home on my flight today, I read the latest Leonidas piece of trash that is floating around. It details the history of this SLI integration from a very one sided point of view.

After I finished it, the thing that stuck in my mind was just how similar that writing is to the Wake trial......only one side of the coin was allowed to be viewed by the jury, with strick instructions from Wake to the jury. It was a sham all the way......the jury had no other way to rule.....what else could they say?

To anyone reading the AOL trash, it's the same kind of sham.....no mention of the Mid Atlantic problem that was left out by NIC, nothing about the discrepancy in years of service, the $8 billion that the East pilots gave up to keep their jobs, and on and on......fabricated BS.

You guys out West just keep wishing.......it will come true......sure "that's the ticket"

The MidA problem is not a problem. It will soon be a distant memory. Nic left it out because the were all furloughed.

 

[toganoflex]

Also, I ran into an old friend today, AB Captain.

He was told by a close friend that a couple of weeks ago there was an FFA inspector on his jumpseat who stated that they were aware of the animosity between the pilot groups and that they don't think the pilot groups will ever be allowed to work together.

Then my friend stated that just this last week, he had another inspector on his jumpseat. They got into the same discussion and the inspector made the same statement.....they will never let us work together.

I know this sounds a little vague and I can't mention names, but the sources are people I would put my money on.

breeze

That's BS.

I ran into a friend whose buddy knows a Captain who flew a js'ing POI. Our POI said therenwill be no problem integrating lists and that most pilots who do fight it on the east will be terminated for cause.

This too is vague but I trust these sources and I would put Breeze's money on it.

 

[des nudo]

East/West pilots will not fly together.

 

[Black Swan]

RE:Jerry Glass, Ignore him at your peril. Who do you think jammed LOA93 down the pilots throats? The tooth fairy? He kicked the ass of every union on the property at US. Not once but twice. He's wearing the big Iron and he's come to kill you.

BTW, if you're interested I have a vintage WWII French Infantry rifle, Never been fired, only dropped once!!

He is back because he wrote LOA 93. And you are correct, he kicked butt the first time. But he made a huge mistake in LOA 93. He wrote the end date of Dec 31 2009 for the pay freeze. They did it because the pilots would not sign an open ended pay freeze. OOOOOOPS!!! Somebody must have thought there would be a merger or meltdown by now. Surprise! This is why he is back. They are going to lose it, and they know it. Glass and Todd Jewitt are back to try and negotiate some of it back any way they can via vacation increase, rigs, any way they can to mitigate the hit. My theory only. But I think it is reality.Times are different now for Mr. Glass. He is not shielded by his bankruptcies. He gets NOTHING this time except what Custer got. Custer came back also for a second try. Look where it got him. He had some big iron, they had many, many more arrows.................

 

[SparrowHawk]

He is back because he wrote LOA 93. And you are correct, he kicked butt the first time. But he made a huge mistake in LOA 93. He wrote the end date of Dec 31 2009 for the pay freeze. They did it because the pilots would not sign an open ended pay freeze. OOOOOOPS!!! Somebody must have thought there would be a merger or meltdown by now. Surprise! This is why he is back. They are going to lose it, and they know it. Glass and Todd Jewitt are back to try and negotiate some of it back any way they can via vacation increase, rigs, any way they can to mitigate the hit. My theory only. But I think it is reality. Custer came back also for a second try. Look where it got him. He had some big iron, they had many, many more arrows.................

OK, and I've not heard of Todd Jewitt. Who he?

As to LOA93 let's see what the Judge has to say. BTW when is the decision supposed to happen?

 

[Barrister]

Actually, the answere to your SW/AirTran question goes like this.

Each case turns on its own merits.

You are already showing a prejudice in your question. Why would the #1 Airtran guy necessarily be #2? Why could he not be #1? We all know that the # 1 pilot at Airtran is not going to be #2 on a combined list because of the merits of the case. Factors other than his relative position will also weigh in. LOS, career earnings expectations, job protections etc...just like our integration. What his position and status earn him at Airtran will be calculated to reflect an equivelent position at the
COMBINED company. That is what his position and status buy him at the new company.

Why isn't the #1 AWA guy # 2 at LCC? He should have been #1 according to your SW comparison, not #518.

In any event comparing the SW aquisition of Airtran to our merger is apples and oranges.

But, if you need a simple yes or no...then the answere is if it ends up in binding arbitration and the arbitrator makes the #1 Airtan guy #2 on the combined list, is this OK??? the simple answer is YES, and not only is it okay, but it will stick, no matter how bad the SW guys throw a fit.

If you ask why can't the AT guy be number 1 with 20-25 years less longevity then
you have indeed proved why this will never work. In 18 months we start moving up big time and you don't
ENJOY

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

If you ask why can't the AT guy be number 1 with 20-25 years less longevity then
you have indeed proved why this will never work. In 18 months we start moving up big time and you don't
ENJOY

NICDOA
NPJB

So you are saying that if American Airlines Bought Trans States, that the 30 year Trans States guy should go ahead of the majority of American pilots due soley to his longevity?

your lack of understanding is why Nic did not give you DOH, and why every person involved to date has told you you are not getting DOH.

18 months? good for you. While the West does not have the attrition the east does, we do have 3-5% attrition per year starting at the same time, and that comes almost exclusively from the top for the first few years. Just had a checkairman retire. Good guy, been making more than your widebody guys for the last 10 years, and has military retirement, Colonel I think. I know that does not fit your picture of a west pilot, but then again, you have been wrong on just about everything.

 

[Barrister]

So you are saying that if American Airlines Bought Trans States, that the 30 year Trans States guy should go ahead of the majority of American pilots due soley to his longevity?

your lack of understanding is why Nic did not give you DOH, and why every person involved to date has told you you are not getting DOH.

18 months? good for you. While the West does not have the attrition the east does, we do have 3-5% attrition per year starting at the same time, and that comes almost exclusively from the top for the first few years. Just had a checkairman retire. Good guy, been making more than your widebody guys for the last 10 years, and has military retirement, Colonel I think. I know that does not fit your picture of a west pilot, but then again, you have been wrong on just about everything.

WOW...you cite a check pilot........HOLY COW....With an override I bet!!! .Don't count on it scooter......typical SENIOR widebody Capt here ...and there are many

US Salary 160K
PBGC 48K
Military 24K

That's almost a quarter mil pal.......Bet you forgot that little PBGC kicker didn't ya!!
that's why we/they aren't selling out the guys who have been stuck in the right seat for so long.
You will never cash your ticket......and above all else......we don't care if you rot in PHX....YOU GOT NO PLACE TO GO
....EVER. You will languish in airline hell for many years......WELCOME TO YOU NEW CAREER EXPECTATIONS
And NIC 4 just in case you ain't getting it....... we don't care what happenes to you...we will ALL be gone in 5-10 years.
With almost 3 BIL in the bank U will survive.......we can last..... then leave....it's all yours!!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Pi brat]

Pi;
Not too bad. We actually should have the numbers to attempt changes in the constitution without any help. That said, I have handed out a dozen or so petitions to east pilots and will continue to do so. One I know personally knows the Nicolau will be the seniority list. He took all three petitions and sent them in.

I have torn up the seniority petition in front of yellow lanyard wearers and asked "Are you truly pleased with USAPA and Mike Cleary's running said "union"?..."Are you OK with him doing ANYTHING that he deems necessary WITHOUT the specific approval of the BPR?"...etc. These pilots agreed to take the petitions and read the content.

I don't know when we will have enough, but the response is doing well and is steady. I'm not an ALPA fan myself, and I think that when the courts ultimately tell the parties what is legally required...I think we could be a very effective independent union. Right now the leader is in his office stating ....."I can't be out of money, I still have checks!". One of my biggest concerns is that we are NOT prepared for another merger (financially OR strategically). We have collectively spent over 15 Million dollars (both sides) to first get to the Nicolau Award, and now for you to try and dodge the Nicolau Award (while I and my group defend it). In the meantime we have all watched as the economic window to a much improved contract SLAM SHUT. If this keeps up, the window will open and shut again.

The west group will not lay down. At some point the courts will tell Doug that he either must use the Nicolau or face the possibility of a hybrid DFR lawsuit. Doug is simply looking for the courts to do his work for him....he walks in to a room in a light blue shirt and chinos and says..."Sorry guys...this is what the courts say I have to do...." Which way do you REALLY think the courts are going to ultimately lean? I don't think it's that tough of a guess.

Thanks for the update.

Not following you on tearing up the petion in front of lanyard wearers.

 

[Pi brat]

You and other ahole west pilots like you are building a debt that some poor west pilot may have to pay some day.