US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Were you there? Did you take photos and videos?

I was there, live and in person. I did take some pictures but no video. Nothing really very interesting was there just thousands of square feet of unproductive space. I did see that most of the executives had individual private rest rooms and the CEO's office also included a private shower with furnishing suitable for a five-star resort.

It’s been five years, but if I remember correctly I saw the empty reception and security stations on the first floor, the IT and HR departments on the second, EDS was on the third floor, Corporate Real Estate was on the fourth floor, the executive suites, board room and legal were on the eighth floor, and sales was on the ninth floor. I can’t remember what else was there, but I can tell you that for every live body working in the building there were at least 50 unoccupied, long departed workspaces just waiting for a liquidation company to come in and clean the place out.

 

[cleardirect]

A pilot on a list, whether on furlough or not, has a career expectation to occupy vacancies, present and future, associated with that list per his order on that list (ie. attrition) ahead of anyone not on that list

This is where you guys get this completely wrong. We did not come on to your list. The lists were MERGED! Why do you guys not understand that? There were 2 lists now there is 1 list. That is a new list that none of us were on.

Using your logic. My un merged expectation was not to have furloughed pilots placed on my list ahead of me that were not there before. My un merged expectations was not to have F/O’s from another list placed senior to me on my list.

We hired a third party to design a new list. What usapa wants to do is add the west to your list using complex formulas and overly creative solutions to force west pilots to the bottom of your list. Not going to happen.

So I ask again how does placing a furlough east pilot senior to a working west captain comply with usapa constitution of maintaining un merged expectations?

Quick answer it does not.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I meant it from the standpoint the Nic is unratifiable so therefore, no east pilot will be bidding west either under separate ops.

No matter how you meant it, it is USAPA's C&R's in a nutshell. Ensure that East has access to all attrition while West is pushed down their "rightful" position on the bottom.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

A pilot on a list, whether on furlough or not, has a career expectation to occupy vacancies, present and future, associated with that list per his order on that list (ie. attrition) ahead of anyone not on that list

As a stand alone company your bottom active guy was Monda. He was 1085 from upgrade. Just using your oh so valuable attrition it would have been 2012 until he ungraded now with 65 it would have been 2017 for him to upgrade un merged. You had 1700 furloughed pilots. in order to get all of them back it would have been 2015 now 2020 for them all to be recalled. That was your un merger career expectations.

Today all of your furloughs have been recall BECAUSE of the merger. Using DOH Monda who was going to be until 2017 to be the junior captain would have 740 west CAPTAINS junior to him. That does not comply with the C&BL to preserve un merged career expectation required by the usapa.

Boys and girls you had better rethink your position.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Crystal City, former HQ building for pre-merger US, was almost a total ghost town in September of 2005. There were hundreds of vacant workspaces on every floor. And the executive offices … echo, echo, echo. Just how was the airline going to continue to operate as a viable entity with virtually no administrative support? US was an $8B airline running on less than 10% of the staff required to keep it functioning. If it wasn’t for EDS holding down the fort (technology wise) even though they weren’t getting properly paid and AWA making US’ payroll, airline operations would have ground to a complete halt. If you didn't walk the empty halls of Crystal City then your perspective was likely skewed as to just how close to demise US really was.

Wow heavy, could you enlighten us on that WEST ZANZIBAR event thanx! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

As a stand alone company your bottom active guy was Monda. He was 1085 from upgrade. Just using your oh so valuable attrition it would have been 2012 until he ungraded now with 65 it would have been 2017 for him to upgrade un merged. You had 1700 furloughed pilots. in order to get all of them back it would have been 2015 now 2020 for them all to be recalled. That was your un merger career expectations.

Today all of your furloughs have been recall BECAUSE of the merger. Using DOH Monda who was going to be until 2017 to be the junior captain would have 740 west CAPTAINS junior to him. That does not comply with the C&BL to preserve un merged career expectation required by the usapa.

Buys and girls you had better rethink your position.

Furloughs have been recalled because of economic need and attrition, 740 WEST CAPTAINS are still WEST captains, !MM! ZANZIBAR know anything about it?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Wow heavy, could you enlighten us on that WEST ZANZIBAR event thanx! MM!

There was no "zanzibar event".....

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Furloughs have been recalled because of economic need and attrition

Nice fantasy (or should I say 2 watt thinking so you'll understand). Was that economic need the shrinking of capacity? Was the attrition increasing after the retirement age changed? Kinda odd that East has about 170 more pilots than the low point while West has about that same number furloughed. Of course, East getting all the new to US aircraft until late last year while West lost aircraft during the same time works out to about 170 jobs shifted from West to East.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

There was no "zanzibar event".....

Jim

Absolutely correct and US Airways never shut down either. It would be nice for everyone to put those to bed.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Not according to oldie, since using arbitration to settle disagreements is sprinkled throughout the RLA it must be true.

Jim

There is a HUGE difference between an arbitration administered by an association as an internal tool and one adminstered to federal standards to settle a federal legal issue. How about publishing what the instructions to the arbitrator was, for a start. You can't, because ALPA wouldn't release that info. I wrote an email to Prater myself, and he absolutely refused. In a federal case, it would be a matter of public record.

Internal union tool is NOT a federal arbitration, no matter what the AOL lawyers tell you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Absolutely correct and US Airways never shut down either.

But that doesn't mean that the financial situations potentially faced by the two unmerged carriers was the same. One can't ignore the fact (yes, fact) that "old" US was shrinking and HP had aircraft deliveries scheduled at the time of the merger. One also can't ignore the fact (yes, fact) that "old" US was spending money faster than it came in while HP was holding it's own. Therefore, one can't ignore the fact (yes, fact) that the HP pilots' expectations were more likely to be fulfilled than "old" US pilots' expectations.

Keep in mind that what happened was the "old" US shutting down and the "new" US taking it's place. Same name but different stockholders, stock symbol, and corporate charter.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

But that doesn't mean that the financial situations potentially faced by the two unmerged carriers was the same. One can't ignore the fact (yes, fact) that "old" US was shrinking and HP had aircraft deliveries scheduled at the time of the merger. One also can't ignore the fact (yes, fact) that "old" US was spending money faster than it came in while HP was holding it's own. Therefore, one can't ignore the fact (yes, fact) that the HP pilots' expectations were more likely to be fulfilled than "old" US pilots' expectations.

Keep in mind that what happened was the "old" US shutting down and the "new" US taking it's place. Same name but different stockholders, stock symbol, and corporate charter.

Jim

Okay then. Asnwer me this. If the financial health were all you say, why would the management of the "new" company start immediately shifting operations from the west to the east, as you seem to be complaining about? Did they intentionally try to dmage the "new" company, or were economic conditions and business prospects better east?

Also, the "old" US Airways didn't cease to exist just because of chapter 11, it was "reorganized" under chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code. Some of the old creditors remained, and some of the old stockholders and bondholders remained.

 

[700UW]

The old company's stock was wiped out, some of the creditors got new stock in the POR. Of course creditors remained as they had to get paid off and did business with the new company.

Read what a POR is and what US' stated in theirs and your answer will be found.

And US as you know did cease to exist.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So it is illegal for employees to be "at will" with no contract (or agreement)?

During normal negotiations, with union representation of an employee "class and craft", I agree with much of what you say except you don't go far enough. BOTH sides have an obligation to bargain in good faith, not just the company. Plus, if the NMB gets involved in settling a sticking point centered on section 22 they'll put a lot of weight on the side of the Nic. After all, arbitration as a means of settling disputes is "all over" the RLA as well.

Jim

Nope. You don't get it either. Even "at will" employees under the RLA have an agreement. To be altered, it has to be approved by the NMB. If represented by a CBA, it is subject to negotiation with the bargaining represetative, in LCC's case, USAPA. Just because both sides don't agree does not mean there isn't a document that spells out what is expected from both sides which is administered by the NMB. Part of the reason companies don't just "impose" something is that the NMB won't let it happen. It is far more likely that something would be imposed on BOTH the company and the pilots, and it may not be advantageous to either.

 

[700UW]

If your an at will employee your not covered under the RLA nor are unionized.

And go look up ACA vs AMFA, AMFA lost a court case that a newly organized group is not under the "status quo"

And guess who lost the case? None other than Lee Seham.

The NMB does not approve or disapprove CBA's under the RLA. I have been on two different Negotiating Committees and we never ever sent the TA to the NMB to approve. And one of them was mediated talks.

I dont know where your getting your information, but your totally misinformed.

Go ask NWA, they imposed terms, I have proved that to you over and over, I even provided a link to the NMB where it is even stated.

Keep trying

Information

Dont bring a water fun to the fight at the OK Corral, because you have no idea of what your talking about.

The union filed suit against ACA seeking a DJ and lost:

For the reasons stated above, we affirm the district court's denial of the Union's motion.