US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Mr B I'll respond again by a hypothetical.

If somehow the East and West merged, and there was no TA, no arbitration, single class and craft was awarded, and then the matter of seniority was determined....that's a completely different case then. DoH would arguably be untouchable, just like straight ratio and a number of other integration methodologies would be virtually untouchable.

Once arbitration was agreed to, executed and completed, it became a very different ballgame. We agreed to let an arbitrator decide, and he did. The motive of the majority controlled union are easy to connect to the union's actions post arbitration. It was an outright admission in Addington that the East was acting in response to the arbitration.

The 9th said the union isn't forced to implement the result per se, and that's it. The backside is that whatever the union comes up with must be fair. If DOH were fair regardless of the facts, then the West would have lost completely at the 9th and the company's dec action would have been dismissed. That did not happen, because DFR II will necessarily examine the entire record, starting in May of 2005. Fairness will always be judged against the Nicolau.

 

[Res Judicata]

Great update from the Heros at Leonidas. Clear, succinct, logical and factual. All the things that repel USAPA. Every time they issue and update it's like kicking a hornets nest....all the hard line Uscabians hit the roof and post for pages.

It's very simple to understand. The LAST thing Usapa wants is to see the inside of a court room...they know they're doomed if they do.

 

[Phoenix]

Here we go again...remedial instruction for the millionth time.

Whatever is used has to be fair. Fairness will be measured against the abitration result.

Oops, the 9th didn't mean to cite the SCOTUS and "wide range of reasonableness". Please direct them to amend their opinion post haste, pronto, rapido, PDQ. Arriba, arriba!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Oops, the 9th didn't mean to cite the SCOTUS and "wide range of reasonableness". Please direct them to amend their opinion post haste, pronto, rapido, PDQ. Arriba, arriba!!

If there is no Nicolau/non-nicolau distinction, then:

in Addington USAPA would have prevailed on:

(1) Motion to Dismiss
(2) Motion for summary judgment
(3) motion to vacate notwithstanding the verdict
(4) The 9th would have overturned as a matter of law for what you say.

If what you say is the law, then the company would have lost on:
(1) USAPA's motion to dismiss the declaratory action
(2) USAPA's motion to drop the West.

Can all five federal judges involved be wrong, and Seham/Bradford right?

 

[Boeing Driver]

Well - I see that the desert rodent low lifes are cranking out the propaganda again in their effort to steal US Airways East pilot's jobs.

Boeing Driver

 

[prechilill]

Well - I see that the desert rodent low lifes are cranking out the propaganda again in their effort to steal US Airways East pilot's jobs.

Boeing Driver

Can you afford an exterminator? Thinking LOA 93 and all...

 

[Captain Underpants]

True in a sense, but it's the yardstick against which DFR is measured. If it wasn't, if it merely didn't have any substantive legal value, then the 9th would have ruled that the West would never have a DFR. The company's declaratory action would have been dismissed. The West would have been completely done.

Aqua,

Your legal theories have some fatal flaws. You can't use Nic as the standard for DFR because to ever be able get the Nic implemented is extremely speculative. The East pilots still have veto rights by contract vote. The best you could have ever done would have been to get a modified Nic implemented and USAPA's DOH is a modified Nic.

The standard for DFR will be measured against what you can prove you have which is indefinite separate operations and no Nic. If you have the Nic as you claim you could simply get a Judge or arbitrator or the company to implement it for you without a pilot vote. They can't do that for you because they can't change the current contract which guarantees separate ops or write the new contract with Nic for you. Even if they could they still can't take away East voting rights to veto it anyway. USAPA's DOH is a large aggregate net gain vs. separate ops for the West pilots. With USAPA's proposal West pilots can take the seniority gains of integrated DOH over separate ops or give them up to East new hires.

The West pilot group certainly does still exist and can be given separate legal voting rights by USAPA. There is no seniority advantage to the East pilots between a joint contract with USAPA's DOH proposal or with separate contracts or with status quo as all of these options keep East DOH intact. Your real threat is not USAPA but will be the angry West F/O's trying to get to the more lucrative East vacancies before the new hires.

underpants

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua,

Your legal theories have some fatal flaws. You can't use Nic as the standard for DFR because to ever be able get the Nic implemented is extremely speculative.

If there is no legal distinction between Nicolau and non-Nicolau, then:

in Addington USAPA would have prevailed on:

(1) Motion to Dismiss
(2) Motion for summary judgment
(3) motion to vacate notwithstanding the verdict
(4) The 9th would have overturned as a matter of law for what you say.

and the company would have lost on:
(1) USAPA's motion to dismiss the declaratory action
(2) USAPA's motion to drop the West.

 

[Res Judicata]

Aqua,

You can't use Nic as the standard for DFR because to ever be able get the Nic implemented is extremely speculative.

Why would you assume that YOUR right to a new contract OUT WEIGHS the West Pilots rights to fair representation? It isn't illegal if you choose to stay on LOA 93 until retirement. Judges couldn't care less about your decision to do that. What IS their business is the DFR and the Law. Vote no Until the end of time. Just know that is your only option to stay separate.

When the choice is crystal clear...NIC inclusive contract, big pay and work rule improvements OR LOA 93 and Separate ops forever.

How confident are you in your co-workers tireless endurance for self inflicted pain? USAPA is deathly afraid of two things: The inside of a Federal Court room and a VOTE by membership.

Some union you got there!

 

[Pi brat]

When the choice is crystal clear...NIC inclusive contract, big pay and work rule improvements OR LOA 93 and Separate ops forever.


[/quote]

Oh no, didn't you see the post from one of your buddies a few pages back? He/she would be happy to stay separate and have us negotiate our own contracts. How's that sound to you?

 

[Pi brat]

If any of us on the west expect 'damages' we're smoking some good stuff.

That would explain some of his posts! I've shared that thought with him, but maybe he will listen to you since you are on his side of the fence. Probably not though, since you are a clear, calm and polite poster.

The west seems to hang it's hat on the transitions agreement for USAPA not being able to get out of the Nic. The same document says separate ops UNTIL A RATIFIED JOINT CONTACT. How can you get damages before that happens?

 

[aquagreen73s]

That would explain some of his posts! I've shared that thought with him, but maybe he will listen to you since you are on his side of the fence. Probably not though, since you are a clear, calm and polite poster.

The west seems to hang it's hat on the transitions agreement for USAPA not being able to get out of the Nic. The same document says separate ops UNTIL A RATIFIED JOINT CONTACT. How can you get damages before that happens?

No one is expecting damages on the West post 9th. That's just the way it is. The good news is that the worst that is going to happen to the West has happened. We're upgrading again (1968 DOB captain on my last trip), and we're set to capture roughly the same number of upgrades under separate ops as we would under the Nicolau. The older pilots on the West (all of whom are captains) are content to keep the Phoenix domicile the way it is. The younger West pilots are content to sit and watch USAPA melt down. We know the Nicolau is not a matter of if, but when.

 

[Pi brat]

Oh yeah. A few weeks ago I made the claim that the AOL media kit had a lie in it. I guess I should back that up, huh? Here's what caught my attention:

"• The West proposal was essentially a top-down blended ratio of actively
working pilots based on their relative positions at their separate
companies: the idea was that each pilot would take their relative positions
on the separate lists to the combined list."

Does anyone see a conflict between this statement and the AWA proposal quoted by Nicolau on page 14 of the award?

Another minor one is that the author says the east proposal was DOH, when it was actually DOH adjusted for LOS, a change that would put some east pilots with an earlier DOH junior to AWA pilots hired later than them.

 

[Black Swan]

You guys keep preaching this, when in actuality, the only starting point that will be used to measure the fairness is your premerger position. The NIC is not the starting point.....it has not be installed as your current position and never will be. The NIC is only a proposal, just as the DOH list is.

breeze

Exactly. The Nic is merely a proposal. That arbitration is neither final nor binding. When Kasher decides LOA 93 pay rest. shortly, you will get a clear idea of what binding arbitration is. There is no way around the Kasher decision. Watch it. It will stick for the company, or the east pilots. Done. But I guarantee the west pilots will continue to say the Nicolau is final and binding. If it were, it would have stuck years ago.

 

[mrbreeze]

When the choice is crystal clear...NIC inclusive contract, big pay and work rule improvements

Surely you jest!!! It may be big improvements for you guys out West with your historicly low paying contracts! We want more.....if you guys are smart and could put your emotions aside for a little while, you could see that the LOA93 award is going to put all of us in a much better position to negotiate a REAL contract. Let's wait for the Kasher decision then figure out where to go with the seniority battle.

breeze