US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Boeing Driver]

Can you afford an exterminator? Thinking LOA 93 and all...

Don't worry toots.... That won't be a problem.

Boeing Driver

 

[aquagreen73s]

Really? The thought of establishing a new bipartisan union that sends Cleary packing just isn't within your realm of possibility?

You're neglecting a fundamental difference since April 2008. The West no longer exists. For a change, this pilot group would be wise to seek proper legal advice before running off in another direction. We owe it to ourselves.

 

[mrbreeze]

Really? The thought of establishing a new bipartisan union that sends Cleary packing just isn't within your realm of possibility?

I swear, the AOL crowd has wrapped themselves up so tight in the Addington case, they can't see the forest for the trees! If half the money that has been spent fighting USAPA in court had been put into building a viable replacement for USAPA, the integration (with NIC or it's equivalent) and the new contract would be in place.

Parker will respect unity, but regardless of how much you spend on court cases, you'll never achieve that. Unity will come when the extreme fringe elements (one of which wil not voluntarily relinquish control) submit to the will of the moderate majority. The present problem is that those pilots do not have a tangible alternative to support, so they pay their monthly extortion and some pay to support the legal circus, and both sides watch their earnings slip further and further behind their contemporaries.

If you saw both east and west pilots wearing a common badge backer that identified them as supporting the best path forwards towards a better future for themselves, and you saw the number of those pilots growing steadily, you would see Cleary shrink (if that's physically possible) away to the level of relevance he deserves (none) and Parker would see that his time of enjoying the civil war from the balcony was over.

So what will it be? Progress or quagmire?

luvin,
I did not vote for Cleary, however, for the period of time that has past, he has stood his ground for the East pilots, regardless of his tactics. He has been the Rooster Cogburn for the East. As with all things, there is an evolution in progress here and I believe his days are numbered, mainly because he has played out his roll in the scheme of things.

Maybe it's time for AOL to consider dropping their lawsuit with the East agreeing to replace Cleary.....for the sake of PROGRESS. Maybe that should read the Addington group....but whoever is threatening the company with DFR lawsuits if they don't get the NIC installed.

I don't have any idea as to the outcome of all this, but truely believe unity is what we have to have if we are going to face management as a union.

Dropping a lawsuit does not have to be a sign of defeat.....but in most cases is a sign of wisdom.

breeze

 

[end_of_alpa]

So Jamie, in your mind, being fair has no place in being fairly represented...

I see.

No, being fair is not the same as being fairly represented, and the only way that gets tested is if and when you have a vote....not until.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

EOA fails to admit that USAPA has patently chosen to favor the interests of the east over those of the west. Unfortunately the morons that run and support USAPA picked someone that has absolutely no subtlety about how he does it. If someone had told him he needed to spend at least 1/3 of his time withthe west pilots, he might have plausible deniability. A jury can see that in a fraction of a second (about how long it takes Seham to bilk approximately $67.35 from the USAPA sheep pen).

When will you admit it EOA?

EOA "admits" that it doesn't matter whether it's ALPA or USAPA or anyone else, if we don't have something to vote on the point is moot. Clearys time as president is now measured in months and I doubt he'll run again. The real question is who will run and what do you think will get accomplished? I can tell you for sure, I won't be running for president, vp, evp or treasurer. Anything else, short of a West pilot, is up for grabs, but that is my opinion.

I also think I know who will run for president but I am not at liberty to say. What I do know is a west pilot won't get it, unless he/she is for DOH. Any east pilot in the president position is suspect in West pilots eyes.

I think Cleary is doing exactly what the job calls for, like it or not. It may not be perfect, but because he isn't giving you what you think you should have doesn't mean he isnt doing the job. He is doing what is required of him, and that is enough.

Btw, Seham isn't the problem, he is nothing more than the foil, just like your buddy and anti-labor law firm Posinelli-Shugart. Every time you bring up Seham I'm bringing up Posinelli. Let's stick to the issues....you won't get Anything until we get a vote.
Good luck.

 

[Res Judicata]

luvin,
I did not vote for Cleary, however, for the period of time that has past, he has stood his ground for the East pilots, regardless of his tactics. He has been the Rooster Cogburn for the East. As with all things, there is an evolution in progress here and I believe his days are numbered, mainly because he has played out his roll in the scheme of things.

Here is the problem. It's staring all of the East squarely in the face yet they don't seem to be able to see it. The WEST deserves fair representation!!! The WEST pays Mike Cleary's flight pay loss just as the EAST does!! When you say Mike Cleary "has stood his ground for the East pilots" you are flat out admitting that there is NO concern or "ground" for the West pilots that interests Mike Cleary, (USAPA) except that ground which solely benefits the East at the EXPENSE of the West. What other ground could you possibly be referring to other than DOH?

This is a perfectly pure, clean example of the endemic attitude that when combined with like actions; create a DFR liability for USAPA. That was proven once already. For whatever reason, the vocal East pilots cannot seem to see the forest through the trees when they make these kinds of blatant remarks.

You guys really are your own worst enemies not just in the courtroom but in contract negotiations as well.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You're neglecting a fundamental difference since April 2008. The West no longer exists. For a change, this pilot group would be wise to seek proper legal advice before running off in another direction. We owe it to ourselves.

Since April 2008 the East no longer exists either.

For a change, how about you quit asking for daddy dougies help in punishing his errant children and start to becoming a part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Why do you keep accusing YOUR FELLOW PILOTS OF ILLEGAL JOB ACTIONS?

I know the FORMER west pilots have embarked on a scorched earth policy, only to damage management labor relations for many years to come.

Good job and good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here is the problem. It's staring all of the East squarely in the face yet they don't seem to be able to see it. The WEST deserves fair representation!!! The WEST pays Mike Cleary's flight pay loss just as the EAST does!! When you say Mike Cleary "has stood his ground for the East pilots" you are flat out admitting that there is NO concern or "ground" for the West pilots that interests Mike Cleary, (USAPA) except that ground which solely benefits the East at the EXPENSE of the West. What other ground could you possibly be referring to other than DOH?

This is a perfectly pure, clean example of the endemic attitude that when combined with like actions; create a DFR liability for USAPA. That was proven once already. For whatever reason, the vocal East pilots cannot seem to see the forest through the trees when they make these kinds of blatant remarks.

You guys really are your own worst enemies not just in the courtroom but in contract negotiations as well.

You didn't prove anything already...it's called a legal nulillity. Res Judicata means a thing decided and that means the appeals court decided it wasn't ripe and it starts again. That doesn't mean WIN AGAIN! Nothing was proven once, and it begins again.

For whatever reason, the IGNORANT west pilots, who like to wish for what they want, cannot seem to see the forest for the trees when they fail to realize that nothing happens without a vote and the OVERWHELMING amount of East pilots will not vote for a CBA without DOH with conditions and restrictions. The courts won't strip us of our vote and that is what the ninth said.....PERIOD. keep listening to yourselves talk...it still won't make you feel any better.

Good luck.....you're going to need it.

 

[luvn737s]

The courts won't strip us of our vote and that is what the ninth said.....PERIOD.

No, the court will not force feed, but they will determine what's on the menu. Even if USAPA would put out T/A after T/A to be voted down, at least that would be above board. But they don't.

More proof of DFR is USAPA's purposely poisoning negotiations in order to prolong the status quo (DOH on the east) at the expense of the west (failure to negotiate Sect 6 for the west contract).

The last thing the west pilots want to see is a smooth talker in the USAPA president's chair. But then again, smooth talkers tend to be much smarter than any east pilot I've seen in public, so maybe there's no apples to sell in that barrel.

 

[mrbreeze]

Here is the problem. It's staring all of the East squarely in the face yet they don't seem to be able to see it. The WEST deserves fair representation!!! The WEST pays Mike Cleary's flight pay loss just as the EAST does!! When you say Mike Cleary "has stood his ground for the East pilots" you are flat out admitting that there is NO concern or "ground" for the West pilots that interests Mike Cleary, (USAPA) except that ground which solely benefits the East at the EXPENSE of the West. What other ground could you possibly be referring to other than DOH?

This is a perfectly pure, clean example of the endemic attitude that when combined with like actions; create a DFR liability for USAPA. That was proven once already. For whatever reason, the vocal East pilots cannot seem to see the forest through the trees when they make these kinds of blatant remarks.

You guys really are your own worst enemies not just in the courtroom but in contract negotiations as well.

Res,
Cleary has defended the East pilots by keeping the NIC from being implimented. As far as a DFR and fairness goes, he has stood his ground....whatever it has taken....to keep the playing field level. Some claim that the NIC is where the West pilots are in the fairness of a DFR. Well, IMHO, the West pilots do not have that position yet, and only have the fairness applied to their current position....the premerger position.

Has he seemed fair to the West pilots? Probably not, by a long shot......but he has stopped the implimentation of the NIC, which is harmful to the East pilots in any way that you look at it. I am sure it is driving you guys crazy to pay dues to USAPA......but if you want fair representation, truely join this union and help find a solution.

I believe that DOH with 10 yr fences is the answer......we will be protected until we retire, while you guys are protected in your current positions. But you guys have to give up the idea that NIC is your current position....that has not and will not happen. Continue thinking that, and you are an adversary to the union.

Again, I think his days are numbered. Hopefully we have reached a point where cooler heads will prevail.....and the demands of the pilot group, East and West, are not so demanding.

breeze

 

[Res Judicata]

OVERWHELMING amount of East pilots will not vote for a CBA without DOH with conditions and restrictions.

In other words, the OVERWHELMING amount of East pilots will not vote for a CBA that DOES NOT EXPLICITLY VIOLATE THE WEST PILOTS right to DFR and LMRDA.

If I were an East pilot, I wouldn't be very comfortable with that statement. Especially when I've been forced back into the courtroom...against my will.

Enough of this BS. There's beers and bbq to be consumed!

God Bless America!!

 

[mrbreeze]

In other words, the OVERWHELMING amount of East pilots will not vote for a CBA that DOES NOT EXPLICITLY VIOLATE THE WEST PILOTS right to DFR and LMRDA.

If I were an East pilot, I wouldn't be very comfortable with that statement. Especially when I've been forced back into the courtroom...against my will.

Enough of this BS. There's beers and bbq to be consumed!

God Bless America!!

No...that is not it....

The West has full rights to DFR and LMRDA.....and anything else God has granted them. But it doesn't come from a basis that they are entitled to a starting point of the NIC, but their premerger position.

Btw, you are a little behind on the beers, my friend. 😉

Cheers....Happy 4th

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Well, I'm all but certain to get a red eye tomorrow evening, guess I better drink a few now.

 

[mrbreeze]

I am sure it is driving you guys crazy to pay dues to USAPA......

breeze

I just wanted to add.....I know how you feel about this.....maybe even on a larger scale.

Think of how you would feel if ALPA had screwed you into a 65% pay cut, gutted your contract, and terminated you pension ( about $1.2 mill for me)....why? Political reasons.....if USAir went away, Delta and United would gain market share and regain their health.

That is why ALPA was voted out.....not just because of the NIC. We finally drew a line in the sand.

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

The West has full rights to DFR and LMRDA.....and anything else God has granted them. But it doesn't come from a basis that they are entitled to a starting point of the NIC, but their premerger position.

And that is the problem for the East. Nic handed out the jobs each side brought to the merger in order of each individual's seniority on their respective list - their pre-merger position. No West pilots were flying 330's or 767's so no West pilots got those slots. No West pilots were furloughed so they didn't get any of those slots either. Pre-merger every West line pilot was able to hold X job based strictly on his/her seniority and that's the slot Nic put them in (as he did the East). So the basis that the West is "entitled" to, in your words, is the Nic.

Jim