US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mrbreeze]

The older pilots on the West (all of whom are captains) are content to keep the Phoenix domicile the way it is. The younger West pilots are content to sit and watch USAPA melt down. We know the Nicolau is not a matter of if, but when.

agua,

If this is the case, why not accept the USAPA DOH proposal with a 10 yr fence, which would protect us old farts in the East....at that point we will all be retired anyway, while getting past all this BS and we can negotiate a new joint contract?

breeze

 

[Pi brat]

No one is expecting damages on the West post 9th. That's just the way it is. The good news is that the worst that is going to happen to the West has happened. We're upgrading again (1968 DOB captain on my last trip), and we're set to capture roughly the same number of upgrades under separate ops as we would under the Nicolau. The older pilots on the West (all of whom are captains) are content to keep the Phoenix domicile the way it is. The younger West pilots are content to sit and watch USAPA melt down. We know the Nicolau is not a matter of if, but when.

Wow! We see something the same way! Better tell nic4us, he must not have gotten the memo.

I am sincerely glad you guys are upgrading over there. I hope the rest of your furloughed pilots get recalled soon too. I hope it continues and I wish the economic environment would turn so we could grow the hub and base, not just transfer the flying around. It would make a lot of our issues moot.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Surely you jest!!! It may be big improvements for you guys out West with your historicly low paying contracts! We want more.....if you guys are smart and could put your emotions aside for a little while, you could see that the LOA93 award is going to put all of us in a much better position to negotiate a REAL contract. Let's wait for the Kasher decision then figure out where to go with the seniority battle.

breeze

Breeze,

Assuming LOA93 is a complete loss, the lion's share of the joint contract will be consumed in bringing the East up to parity. There isn't much in a joint contract for the West. The inexperienced NAC is taking what would have been a decent joint contract four years ago and royally screwing everything up. No matter which side one is on the seniority dispute, it cannot be denied that opening up all of the contract sections was the absolute dumbest idea on the planet, unless of course it was a part of the plan to exchange cost neuitral (read: concessionary) contract with DOH. That must have been the plan. USAPA would have been better off taking the East pilots' futures and putting everything down on Black 23 at the roulette table. For most on the East, they will never recover from USAPA's mistakes.

 

[Res Judicata]

Oh no, didn't you see the post from one of your buddies a few pages back? He/she would be happy to stay separate and have us negotiate our own contracts. How's that sound to you?

Fine. However the company has expressed zero interest in doing so. We've had our section 6 rights denied to us, (by you) for years. For the life of me, I don't understand how that it's legal to simply ignore the West's right to amend our contract. The singular reason we've been denied this fundamental right is the East's refusal to accept reality. This mess has cost all of us unknowable amounts of money and QOL improvements. The USAPA vote sealed everybodies fate to this quagmire. Look around! Have you seen how many contracts have been signed over the last 4 years? Our pay is embarrassing. Your pay is flatly criminal,(although you chose this). Nothing Seham promised you is working. Not even close. If there was a way to hit the "reset" button on all of this I think most of us would gladly do so and start again from scratch. That can't happen now. No West, No independent reps anymore, no choice but to let this grind away for years to come in court. Parker isn't smart enough to have engineered this from the beginning but he sure as hell is smart enough to exploit it for all it's worth. I'm more than tired of accommodating Parker's windfall. Everybody but USAPA and Seham have found a post-arbitration DOH cram down to the sole and abject detriment to the West to be well outside the "wide range of reasonableness" they hang their hat on. The Jury saw through all of that BS is no time.

I'm in the minority probably but I really do sympathize with how badly the East careers have turned out. The loss of the Pension should have resulted in somebody spending the rest of their lives in prison. But that isn't the way it works in this country. Again, how that is Legal will always be beyond my understanding. I, (the west) am NOT your enemy. This Industry is moving on leaving ALL of us in the dust. That is frustrating isn't it? Maddeningly so. We're sitting here with a self imposed straight jacket on all the while First Officers at other airlines are increasingly getting paid MORE than your Captains. Don't even think about the work rules other major's enjoy either....that'd keep you up at night. Look, I'd love to be able to wave a magic wand and fix this to everybodie's collective satisfaction but that isn't possible. If USAPA hadn't flat out declared War on the West by wasting no effort to use brute force to pummel us at every single opportunity maybe something could be worked out. Getting Rid of ALPA could have been a fantastic opportunity to start anew. I would have welcomed it in nearly any OTHER circumstance. USAPA has morphed into an absolutely out of control, unsustainable Monster. I used to think that ALPA had no interest in truly serving the pilots....especially us because of our size. But compared to USAPA...who has absolutely, positively NO desire to do anything for me but Steal from me by force, and to deny my section 6 rights flat out, ALPA was a shining gem of unionism.

I cannot imagine anybody voting for USAPA 3.5 years ago had THIS in mind. Is this really the Union you thought you were going to get? The one you were promised? All I see is an organization run by a kernal of hard core maniacs. Watching this "union" evolve over the years has been like witnessing the birth of Organized Crime. They extort "protection" money from everybody and tell you they're going to do one thing but then turn around and DO something else. With no transparency, no input from the constituency, and no fiscal responsibility. They make outlandish claims that ALPA is funding AOL to the tune of 700k and nobody out East calls them on it. This "safety" campaign is patently ridiculous. What is the point?!!! Do the "safety first" crowd actually believe their going to force the company into accepting an illegal seniority list by FORCE?!! That's absurd. Personally, I think Parker is simply sitting on his hands waiting for USAPA to provide enough rope to hang themselves. Being your illegal work action is the WORST kept secret in the history of Negotiations, I'd say the company had plenty of evidence already. I could go on and on...and judging by how many pages on on this subject, I'm guessing I'm not alone.

The 4th of July is really a celebration of fighting Tyranny and demanding freedom from persecution. The West is going to aggressively, and vehemently fight USAPA for as long as is necessary for the very same reason for today's Holiday. I really do wish all Eastie's the best however, again I'm not your enemy...unless you insist upon it. Which apparently enough of you do. When sane rational people are allowed to run a REAL union, perhaps this nightmare will end. Happy 4th!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here we go again...remedial instruction for the millionth time.

Whatever is used has to be fair. Fairness will be measured against the abitration result. Like ALPA, USAPA is free to abandon the result, but whatever they come up with has to be fair. When every West pilot loses and every East pilots gain versus the Nicolau, there's a problem. The yardstick will forever be the Nicolau and it matters not who the union is. Arbitrations just don't disappear, and that's USAPA's problem. That's where the founders outright lied to the East pilots. If the Nicolau did disappear, than the West never would have gotten a trial nor would the company have won on USAPA's motion to dismiss the declaratory action.

The company has the added complexity of the arbitration result being memorialized in the Transition Agreement. The arbitration result was accepted by the company in December of 2007. To accept something other than the arbitration result is effectively a modification of the Transition Agreement. Problem is, the company can incur liability by agreeing to something else if the party they are dealing with - USAPA - breaches its DFR in modifying the TA.

If the company didn't take USAPA up on their offer of a concessionary contract in exchange for DOH three years ago, then they certainly won't deal away from the Nic given the jury verdict. The company is many things, but they certainly aren't stupid. Status quo for many years, and that's perfectly acceptable to the West.

Enjoy LOA93.

Here we go again....fairness is NOT a part of the standard of duty of fair representation. You should go visit Marty Harper and have him explain it to you. You do realize he was on the LOSING side of the argument in both ALPA V. ONEILL as well as ADDINGTON!

Yardstick....there is NO YARDSTICK! Fairness is not a part of elements of DFR and the ONLY point you prevailed on at trial was "bad faith" and even THAT was thrown out. We may be "clowns" over here but you are the BOZOS when it comes to legal analysis. The company cries crocodile tears when it comes to "oh we don't know how we can negotiate". What a croc.....

The transition agreement simply allowed ALPA to ATTEMPT to integrate seniority lists using a methodology called ALPA merger policy. However, the agreement is not MEMORIALIZED the way you think, and it wasn't without restrictions.....the company didnt care about seniority as long as it didn't cost them anything, first of all, and secondly, before any list presented to the company could be used, it had to meet those conditions and lastly, before it becomes MEMORIALIZED it has to be RATIFIED.

Why don't you read ALPA v. Oneill before you try to act like a lawyer. Better yet, put Marty on, I'm sure he'll tell you to go to law school. ALPA called it arbitration....that doesn't make it so. As I told you before and proved it to you the federal arbitration act doesn't apply to transportation workers, RLA is its own body of statutory law and enforcement lies with the ratification of a CBA and is between two parties, the company and USAPA. That's something that Parker was trying to explain to you at the PHX tantrum meeting but you simply didn't understand.

You are wrong....dead wrong....and you WILL lose in court.

I just spoke to Skip last Saturday and I explained it to him. At best the companies "fear" is really that they have to BARGAIN! Oh my gawd....what a f--king nightmare!

 

[prechilill]

....fairness is NOT a part of the standard of duty of fair representation.

So Jamie, in your mind, being fair has no place in being fairly represented...

I see.

 

[mrbreeze]

Happy 4th, guys! I am raising a glass to you all!

breeze

 

[end_of_alpa]

Oh no, didn't you see the post from one of your buddies a few pages back? He/she would be happy to stay separate and have us negotiate our own contracts. How's that sound to you?

Fine. However the company has expressed zero interest in doing so. We've had our section 6 rights denied to us, (by you) for years. For the life of me, I don't understand how that it's legal to simply ignore the West's right to amend our contract. The singular reason we've been denied this fundamental right is the East's refusal to accept reality. This mess has cost all of us unknowable amounts of money and QOL improvements. The USAPA vote sealed everybodies fate to this quagmire. Look around! Have you seen how many contracts have been signed over the last 4 years? Our pay is embarrassing. Your pay is flatly criminal,(although you chose this). Nothing Seham promised you is working. Not even close. If there was a way to hit the "reset" button on all of this I think most of us would gladly do so and start again from scratch. That can't happen now. No West, No independent reps anymore, no choice but to let this grind away for years to come in court. Parker isn't smart enough to have engineered this from the beginning but he sure as hell is smart enough to exploit it for all it's worth. I'm more than tired of accommodating Parker's windfall. Everybody but USAPA and Seham have found a post-arbitration DOH cram down to the sole and abject detriment to the West to be well outside the "wide range of reasonableness" they hang their hat on. The Jury saw through all of that BS is no time.

I'm in the minority probably but I really do sympathize with how badly the East careers have turned out. The loss of the Pension should have resulted in somebody spending the rest of their lives in prison. But that isn't the way it works in this country. Again, how that is Legal will always be beyond my understanding. I, (the west) am NOT your enemy. This Industry is moving on leaving ALL of us in the dust. That is frustrating isn't it? Maddeningly so. We're sitting here with a self imposed straight jacket on all the while First Officers at other airlines are increasingly getting paid MORE than your Captains. Don't even think about the work rules other major's enjoy either....that'd keep you up at night. Look, I'd love to be able to wave a magic wand and fix this to everybodie's collective satisfaction but that isn't possible. If USAPA hadn't flat out declared War on the West by wasting no effort to use brute force to pummel us at every single opportunity maybe something could be worked out. Getting Rid of ALPA could have been a fantastic opportunity to start anew. I would have welcomed it in nearly any OTHER circumstance. USAPA has morphed into an absolutely out of control, unsustainable Monster. I used to think that ALPA had no interest in truly serving the pilots....especially us because of our size. But compared to USAPA...who has absolutely, positively NO desire to do anything for me but Steal from me by force, and to deny my section 6 rights flat out, ALPA was a shining gem of unionism.

I cannot imagine anybody voting for USAPA 3.5 years ago had THIS in mind. Is this really the Union you thought you were going to get? The one you were promised? All I see is an organization run by a kernal of hard core maniacs. Watching this "union" evolve over the years has been like witnessing the birth of Organized Crime. They extort "protection" money from everybody and tell you they're going to do one thing but then turn around and DO something else. With no transparency, no input from the constituency, and no fiscal responsibility. They make outlandish claims that ALPA is funding AOL to the tune of 700k and nobody out East calls them on it. This "safety" campaign is patently ridiculous. What is the point?!!! Do the "safety first" crown actually believe their going to force the company into accepting an illegal seniority list by FORCE?!! That's absurd. Personally, I think Parker is simply sitting on his hands waiting for USAPA to provide enough rope to hang themselves. Being your illegal work action is the WORST kept secret in the history of Negotiations, I'd say the company had plenty of evidence already. I could go on and on...and judging by how many pages on on this subject, I'm guessing I'm not alone.

The 4th of July is really a celebration of fighting Tyranny and demanding freedom from persecution. The West is going to aggressively, and vehemently fight USAPA for as long as is necessary for the very same reason for today's Holiday. I really do wish all Eastie's the best however, again I'm not your enemy...unless you insist upon it. Which apparently enough of you do. When sane rational people are allowed to run a REAL union, perhaps this nightmare will end. Happy 4th!

Funny but you need to change your handle...Res doesn't apply in RLA law the way you wish it to be. I will admit the legal battle has dragged out longer than I thought it would as well. However, we now have to see this through to the end, bitter or not. Time in service is the only reason to have a union and if that is a value you don't want then we truly on our own.

From what I just read from you this is one of the biggest reasons we may never integrate, or if we do it will be quite some time from now.

Besides, doug said we are a special air carrier that's not a major and not a regional....we all are special and therefore get special pay. We have to accept what doug says he can afford to pay us. Isn't that special.

Good luck.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Here we go again....fairness is NOT a part of the standard of duty of fair representation.

Fairness is not a part of the Duty of FAIR Representation? Do you USAPA acolytes just make this crap up as you go along, irrespective of how dumb your machinations make you look?



"8 It is now well established that, as the exclusive bargaining representative of the employees in Owens' bargaining unit, the Union had a statutory duty fairly to represent all of those employees, both in its collective bargaining with Swift, see Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 73 S.Ct. 681, 97 L.Ed. 1048; Syres v. Oil Workers International Union, 350 U.S. 892, 76 S.Ct. 152, 100 L.Ed. 785, and in its enforcement of the resulting collective bargaining agreement, see Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S. 335, 84 S.Ct. 363, 11 L.Ed.2d 370. The statutory duty of fair representation was developed over 20 years ago in a series of cases involving alleged racial discrimination by unions certified as exclusive bargaining representatives under the Railway Labor Act, see Steele v. Louisville & N.R. Co., 323 U.S. 192, 65 S.Ct. 226, 89 L.Ed. 173; Tunstall v. Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen, 323 U.S. 210, 65 S.Ct. 235, 89 L.Ed. 187, and was soon extended to unions certified under the N.L.R.A., see Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, supra. Under this doctrine, the exclusive agent's statutory authority to represent all members of a designated unit includes a statutory obligation to serve the interests of all members without hostility or discrimination toward any, to exercise its discretion with complete good faith and honesty, and to avoid arbitrary conduct. Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S., at 342, 84 S.Ct., at 367."
http://openjurist.org/386/us/171

 

[mrbreeze]

Fairness is not a part of the Duty of FAIR Representation? Do you USAPA acolytes just make this crap up as you go along, irrespective of how dumb your machinations make you look?



"8 It is now well established that, as the exclusive bargaining representative of the employees in Owens' bargaining unit, the Union had a statutory duty fairly to represent all of those employees, both in its collective bargaining with Swift, see Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 73 S.Ct. 681, 97 L.Ed. 1048; Syres v. Oil Workers International Union, 350 U.S. 892, 76 S.Ct. 152, 100 L.Ed. 785, and in its enforcement of the resulting collective bargaining agreement, see Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S. 335, 84 S.Ct. 363, 11 L.Ed.2d 370. The statutory duty of fair representation was developed over 20 years ago in a series of cases involving alleged racial discrimination by unions certified as exclusive bargaining representatives under the Railway Labor Act, see Steele v. Louisville & N.R. Co., 323 U.S. 192, 65 S.Ct. 226, 89 L.Ed. 173; Tunstall v. Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen, 323 U.S. 210, 65 S.Ct. 235, 89 L.Ed. 187, and was soon extended to unions certified under the N.L.R.A., see Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, supra. Under this doctrine, the exclusive agent's statutory authority to represent all members of a designated unit includes a statutory obligation to serve the interests of all members without hostility or discrimination toward any, to exercise its discretion with complete good faith and honesty, and to avoid arbitrary conduct. Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S., at 342, 84 S.Ct., at 367."
http://openjurist.org/386/us/171

Nice to see something solid in the area of guidance, instead of the ALPA merger policy. If only ALPA had established a national senoirity list in the beginning, we wouldn't be here.

So, considering your post, aqua, if the West pilots would quit claiming the NIC as their starting point in fairness as far as a DFR, and accepted the fact that their actual current position is premerger.........also accepting DOH with a 10 yr fence, protecting PHX and us in the East, don't you think USAPA would welcome a unified group and do all possible to get the best contract for all of us, especially in lew of the fact that the legal straight jackets were removed so that there would be room for give and take?

breeze

 

[Res Judicata]

Funny but you need to change your handle...Res doesn't apply in RLA law the way you wish it to be. I will admit the legal battle has dragged out longer than I thought it would as well. However, we now have to see this through to the end, bitter or not. Time in service is the only reason to have a union and if that is a value you don't want then we truly on our own.

From what I just read from you this is one of the biggest reasons we may never integrate, or if we do it will be quite some time from now.

Technically you are correct that Res Judicata applies differently to RLA. However, in reality, Nothing that has transpired since USAPA showed up should indicate to you....even infinitesimally, that the seniority list hasn't already been decided. Now, the 9th left room open for negotiations and maybe the Nic. wouldn't have to be the ultimate seniority list. That assumes that USAPA and the West could negotiate something they BOTH agree to. Their statement didn't give carte blanche and approval for USAPA to continue with their DOH scheme fully unabated. Because if they did, they'd be facing an "unquestionably ripe DFR".

That's one point. The other is this: Do you really believe that "Time in service is the only reason to have a union"? Isn't that a little myopic? I think you're in the minority on that one. Most people I know feel a union should provide an entire array of benefits and services from those they extract dues from. Not you apparently.

You so forcefully and confidently claim that the West WILL lose in court. How on Earth do you look past the fact that the WEST ALREADY WON IN COURT?

Happy 4th. and Good Luck

 

[aquagreen73s]

Nice to see something solid in the area of guidance, instead of the ALPA merger policy. If only ALPA had established a national senoirity list in the beginning, we wouldn't be here.

So, considering your post, aqua, if the West pilots would quit claiming the NIC as their starting point in fairness as far as a DFR, and accepted the fact that their actual current position is premerger.........also accepting DOH with a 10 yr fence, protecting PHX and us in the East, don't you think USAPA would welcome a unified group and do all possible to get the best contract for all of us, especially in lew of the fact that the legal straight jackets were removed so that there would be room for give and take?

breeze

Breeze,

I don't refute anything you say, but here's the second part of our problem. There is no West. Possibility of a Wye River II was cut off in April of 2008. Seriously, not trying to be evasive, but honest to God I don't know what can be done outside of the court room. Structurally, our situation is completely different than under ALPA. I don't know if we have any flexibility left, or whether we can do something to return flexibility. East and West is now in the Twilight Zone. One thing we could do is to seek proper legal advice independent of USAPA and AOL. We need honest guidance form someone who has knowledge and no dog in the fight.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Fairness is not a part of the Duty of FAIR Representation? Do you USAPA acolytes just make this crap up as you go along, irrespective of how dumb your machinations make you look?



"8 It is now well established that, as the exclusive bargaining representative of the employees in Owens' bargaining unit, the Union had a statutory duty fairly to represent all of those employees, both in its collective bargaining with Swift, see Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 73 S.Ct. 681, 97 L.Ed. 1048; Syres v. Oil Workers International Union, 350 U.S. 892, 76 S.Ct. 152, 100 L.Ed. 785, and in its enforcement of the resulting collective bargaining agreement, see Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S. 335, 84 S.Ct. 363, 11 L.Ed.2d 370. The statutory duty of fair representation was developed over 20 years ago in a series of cases involving alleged racial discrimination by unions certified as exclusive bargaining representatives under the Railway Labor Act, see Steele v. Louisville & N.R. Co., 323 U.S. 192, 65 S.Ct. 226, 89 L.Ed. 173; Tunstall v. Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen, 323 U.S. 210, 65 S.Ct. 235, 89 L.Ed. 187, and was soon extended to unions certified under the N.L.R.A., see Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, supra. Under this doctrine, the exclusive agent's statutory authority to represent all members of a designated unit includes a statutory obligation to serve the interests of all members without hostility or discrimination toward any, to exercise its discretion with complete good faith and honesty, and to avoid arbitrary conduct. Humphrey v. Moore, 375 U.S., at 342, 84 S.Ct., at 367."
http://openjurist.org/386/us/171

That is what the court considers the "duty of fair REPRESENTATION" but you keep inferring fair when actually it is REPRESENTATION that is the key word. Now you quote the proper DEFINITION of that fair representation. About time.

Good luck.

 

[luvn737s]

Seriously, not trying to be evasive, but honest to God I don't know what can be done outside of the court room.

Really? The thought of establishing a new bipartisan union that sends Cleary packing just isn't within your realm of possibility?

I swear, the AOL crowd has wrapped themselves up so tight in the Addington case, they can't see the forest for the trees! If half the money that has been spent fighting USAPA in court had been put into building a viable replacement for USAPA, the integration (with NIC or it's equivalent) and the new contract would be in place.

Parker will respect unity, but regardless of how much you spend on court cases, you'll never achieve that. Unity will come when the extreme fringe elements (one of which wil not voluntarily relinquish control) submit to the will of the moderate majority. The present problem is that those pilots do not have a tangible alternative to support, so they pay their monthly extortion and some pay to support the legal circus, and both sides watch their earnings slip further and further behind their contemporaries.

If you saw both east and west pilots wearing a common badge backer that identified them as supporting the best path forwards towards a better future for themselves, and you saw the number of those pilots growing steadily, you would see Cleary shrink (if that's physically possible) away to the level of relevance he deserves (none) and Parker would see that his time of enjoying the civil war from the balcony was over.

So what will it be? Progress or quagmire?

 

[luvn737s]

EOA fails to admit that USAPA has patently chosen to favor the interests of the east over those of the west. Unfortunately the morons that run and support USAPA picked someone that has absolutely no subtlety about how he does it. If someone had told him he needed to spend at least 1/3 of his time withthe west pilots, he might have plausible deniability. A jury can see that in a fraction of a second (about how long it takes Seham to bilk approximately $67.35 from the USAPA sheep pen).

When will you admit it EOA?