US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Do you know why APA was dismissed? I do, and you're totally off on APA's dismissal having anything with USAPA inheriting the Nicolau. If you were right, the company's dec action would have been dismissed immediately. If you were right, Addington would have been dismissed immediately. How many times do you have to lose in court before you start to figure out that the Nicolau does not go away? How long under LOA93?

I can read too, you know. I just provided the links.

As far as the dismissal I was even caught off guard when Silver kept it in her court. However, the "jury" is still out on what she'll do next. However, were probably going to bench trial on this anyway so be prepared to be emasculated. Just another day at the beach. How long do you have to get the ninth circuit to kick your a$$ until you finally get it.....NO VOTE, NO CBA?

Good luck.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I can read too, you know. I just provided the links.

As far as the dismissal I was even caught off guard when Silver kept it in her court. However, the "jury" is still out on what she'll do next. However, were probably going to bench trial on this anyway so be prepared to be emasculated. Just another day at the beach. How long do you have to get the ninth circuit to kick your a$$ until you finally get it.....NO VOTE, NO CBA?

Good luck.

The Company's DJ has nothing ( over very little) to do with a future ratification vote. It is primarily centered on legal and financial perils of accepting a seniority list in violation of the Transition Agreement in comparison to the financial perils of a potential work stoppage. Since both conditions are untenable, the Company is seeking judicial relief.

 

[cleardirect]

GUESS AGAIN ! YOU WISH, but nothing ever is that simple, boy wait till the NAUGHLER CASE kicks in, ALPA'S got problems! MM!

What Naughler case? The judge has had paperwork for over a year and NOTHING has been done on that case. NOTHING! That case is dead.

 

[767jetz]

This is a HUGE victory for USAPA

Haven't you learned your lesson by now? Why is it that you are always the first to crow from the roof tops about "HUGE VICTORIES" only to realize that nothing actually changes for you? You did it with the 9th, with the alleged identity theft, the Cactus 18, and now TWA. Yet you still have shown nothing but delay. Zero progress. I guess delay and distraction is progress in your eyes

It is all about ALPA, screwing up its' members because they failed to make a concrete merger policy and changed it all the time.

The TWA pilots just made a great case for USAPA in demonstrating how ALPA is a failed union

You sure about that? Better check your facts. What exactly did Seeham say about the TWA case?

I'm surprised no one mentioned this until now... but nic4us got it right:

For everyone else, the TWA vs. ALPA suit does not support either of our sides arguements fully. It is a completely different issues discussed. Once again, each case turns on its own merits, and we can pull things from TWA that support our position, however, it is really apples and oranges.

But, I will say this, Seeham supported TWA, saying that they should have been given a chance at arbitration. Well, the east was afforded arbitration, so what is Seeham's arguement exactly? That the TWA pilots got screwed because they did not get to arbitrate their case, that he also feels the APA could have simply ignored using its majority?

BINGO!

TWA pilots were never afforded the opportunity to use ALPA merger policy. APA made a deal with ALPA to protect SOME of the more senior TWA pilots in exchange for giving up rights to negotiation/mediation/arbitration. That was APA's pre-nup. No agreement - no deal - total TWA liquidation and fragmentation. I guess the court found that ALPA did not represent their members, by abandoning their merger policy and letting an arbitrator decide. They made a deal thinking it was the lesser of two evils. It never got to binding arbitration.

East and West is totally different. the East/West was afforded merger policy process all the way through binding arbitration. The OPINION that ALPA merger policy was not followed, was flawed, or was unfair to the east has never been substantiated in any court. One case used merger policy all the through to arbitration, the other didn't even get their voice heard. IMO there is no way anyone can say it's not an apples and oranges comparison.

An interesting side note: The TWA deal with AA was a pre-requisite to the 2000 UA/US attempted merger, as was DC Air, in order to get the Feds approval. No one on the east made a peep about it at the time because they were holding their breath on the UA/US merger. If ALPA had not agreed to APA's terms, and the deal fell through, it would have put the UA/US merger at risk. Now suddenly the east wants to use the "injustice" of the TWA case to support their cause. Perhaps another example of situational ethics?

 

[cleardirect]

You see, I'm as good as pounding sand as you are!

Good luck in court, youre going to need it.

Thanks! But gee why are we even in court? Seham filed to have it dismissed. usaoa lost that game. You say the ninth said the case case is over and usapa can do what they want. If that were true we would not be in court would we?

So perhaps it is you and your east pals that need the luck in court.

With the TWA case going to damages the company is going to be VERY careful about liability. To bad usapa or I should say Cleary is to stupid and arrogant to understand what he is up against.

If you guys are so confident about court why the waste of time and money fighting the class action? Why the fear of getting to trial? Ask for an expedited trial, put on your weak case and let's move forward. Why the delay if you think you are "WINNING" Charlie Sheen?

 

[fodase]

So after all this banter I come back to the original question:

If every other employee at the "old companies" got to use their years of service with equal value in relation to all the other employees, why do pilots think their entitled to different treatment using the who bought who argument to erase years of service?

The pilot integration followed the unions policy just like every other work group did. How many pilot seniority integrations have gone doh the last 20 years? Let's include trump shuttle/usair, was that doh?

 

[aquagreen73s]

As far as the dismissal I was even caught off guard when Silver kept it in her court.

And you still dont' understand the significance of losing on the motion to dismiss. If what you believe that law to be is true, then as a matter of law the company's suit should have clearly been dismissed. Same with Addington, and before you go off on your tangent about ripeness, a lot of you on the East just don't understand that decision either. The 9th would not have bothered with ripeness if the law was actually the way you believe, that as a matter of law it can't be a DFR for ignoring an arbitration. That would have validated everything Lee Seham has said.

But the 9th didn't do that. The 9th expects to see this again when the DFR is "painfully ripe."

However, were probably going to bench trial on this anyway so be prepared to be emasculated.

Yeah. Silver seems real inclined to go your direction given her willingness to import the Addington record. Keep dreaming.

No court in this land is going to state that as a matter of law an arbitration can be ignored. Nobody. Only the delusional believe otherwise.

 

[cleardirect]

aqua,

I know you have to be good sales guy to keep your dream alive.........

Every new hire coming to the east will always vote with the east pilots. The first day in any east cockpit they will realize the guy next to them will be out of this place in just a few years. Average east age 59 plus years old.

They will love separate operations for career advancement.

You co-founders have put your boys in a very poor position.

Keep your eye on the prize!

Hate

By the second day the new hire will realize that you guys are liars. The average age of east pilots is not 59. At least try and get your fact straight will you.

Do you think they are going to love separate ops for the rest of their career making commuter wages and less with the worst work rules in the industry? Heck why would they even come to the east when very soon commuter pilots are going to have a better contract than east pilots.

Do you guys really think that separate ops is sustainable forever? Someday we are going to have a joint contract. Even if you guys pull a rabbit out of your butts and get DOH. Those new hires will still be junior to all of us west guys. So that is always going to be out there. You can try and bring the new hires into your cult of crap but they are going to know better.

 

[Pi brat]

Did he name one? I know of none that "sit on shelves and never get used."

He said his name was on a CO/WA that never got used, but that was because the merger didn't happen. One of his concerns was that this fight could bring down the airline, then of course it wouldn't be used.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this until now... but nic4us got it right:

No direct effect on our situation, but there is a huge indirect effect at play. TWA was the flip side of the same DFR coin. In TWA, the merger policy wasn't followed. Here, merger policy was followed, but then ignored. The result so far has been jury verdicts in both cases. The facts won't change in our case. USAPA can't undo the Bradford memo or can't hide the fact that the reason for not honoring the Nicolau is to advantage the East. If you're US Airways and you're looking at what just happened in NJ, and you're mindful of what happened in Addington, and you clearly understand the hybrid DFR claim, then I doubt anyone at the top would be risking liabilities in the billions just to negotiate with USAPA. That's the effect of yesterday's verdict on this situation.

 

[aquagreen73s]

He said his name was on a CO/WA that never got used, but that was because the merger didn't happen. One of his concerns was that this fight could bring down the airline, then of course it wouldn't be used.

Obviously. They never merged. How about WA-DAL? Last I checked that was in use.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://www.twapilot.org/TWA%20vs.%20ALPA%20Documents/Lee%20Seham%20Report.pdf ALPA, gotta luv em!

 

[767jetz]

If every other employee at the "old companies" got to use their years of service with equal value in relation to all the other employees, why do pilots think their entitled to different treatment using the who bought who argument to erase years of service?

That's what's called a loaded question, because the answer you are looking for is already baked into the question by the selective use of certain key words.

The real answer is that they didn't. They used the merger policy of their respective unions.

If you leave out things like - entitled - equal value - and different treatment - erase- all which imply a biased premise, then the question should read something like this...

"If every other unionized employee group at the "old company" used their respective merger policy at the time of the merger, as they are required to do, why do some pilots think that their union's merger policy should not apply to them?"

You guys have a penchant for muddying the waters by injecting lots of biased premise and opinions disguised as facts into your arguments.

Maybe you are trying to point out the difference in merger policies. Then you could ask... "If all the other labor groups use DOH or LOS in their merger policy, why didn't ALPA?" That would be a question that could be debated. And actually has many times before, but still does not change the fact that the merger policy in place at the time was used and followed.

The who bought who question does not play a role. What did play a role, and was explained extensively in the arbitrators decision, was the economic realities at the time.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No direct effect on our situation, but there is a huge indirect effect at play. TWA was the flip side of the same DFR coin. In TWA, the merger policy wasn't followed. Here, merger policy was followed, but then ignored. The result so far has been jury verdicts in both cases. The facts won't change in our case. USAPA can't undo the Bradford memo or can't hide the fact that the reason for not honoring the Nicolau is to advantage the East. If you're US Airways and you're looking at what just happened in NJ, and you're mindful of what happened in Addington, and you clearly understand the hybrid DFR claim, then I doubt anyone at the top would be risking liabilities in the billions just to negotiate with USAPA. That's the effect of yesterday's verdict on this situation.

NUAGHLER CASE disagrees with your assumption! READ ON! BTW so does SEHAM! MM!

 

[fodase]

He said his name was on a CO/WA that never got used, but that was because the merger didn't happen. One of his concerns was that this fight could bring down the airline, then of course it wouldn't be used.

The merger didn't happen? lol, you are comparing that to our situation? How long have we been one airline, certificate? You admit that Nicolau exists, you admit we are one airline, what do you reason will doh be compared against to see if the west is disadvantaged by usapa?