US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

Separate ratification requirements under ALPA merger policy made it even worst as far a a JCBA.

Quote that requirement. It doesn't exist in the T/A.

 

[Pi brat]

That last sentence is where I think a lot of East pilots fall off the wagon. Nicolau didn't create this log jam.

That's where you fall of the surfboard. He did indeed create it. He created it when he produced a list that the east pilots felt that could not live with, no matter what that not living with it would cost, but validated the west's attitude about it.

This one thing that I feel very strongly about: This company would not have given us a contract rich enough to pass had it contain the Nic, whether it was ALPA or USAPA trying to do it. One day, after a lot of blood loss maybe, but not in 2007.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The inference was clear to me and probably others as well. We in the West are accustomed to getting nothing but inferences and admonitions from the majority, from ALPA, from USAPA and even the company. But, we ignored them because we knew what the law is. Sorry if you took offense at how I interpreted your post.

 

[cleardirect]

That's where you fall of the surfboard. He did indeed create it. He created it when he produced a list that the east pilots felt that could not live with, no matter what that not living with it would cost, but validated the west's attitude about it.

This one thing that I feel very strongly about: This company would not have given us a contract rich enough to pass had it contain the Nic, whether it was ALPA or USAPA trying to do it. One day, after a lot of blood loss maybe, but not in 2007.

You just proved the point. It is the east pilots that created the log jam. The company accepted the list. The west pilots accepted the list. It is the east pilots that refuse to accept the list. If east pilots accept the list is there a log jam anymore?

Nicolau created a list following ALPA merger policy that east pilots agreed to and were invilved with . You guys try and portray this like it was done to you and you had no say in this. It was east pilots that hired your lawyer. It was east pilots that paid for the arbitration. It was east pilots that decided strategy. It is east pilots that refuse to live up to your word and east pilots that cause the log jam.

What happens if you win LOA 93 and the company just refuses to pay? Is it the company that caused the log jam or Kasher because he came up with a bad ruling? (In the companies opinion)

 

[Pi brat]

The inference was clear to me and probably others as well. We in the West are accustomed to getting nothing but inferences and admonitions from the majority, from ALPA, from USAPA and even the company. But, we ignored them because we knew what the law is. Sorry if you took offense at how I interpreted your post.

Well my friend, you inferred wrong. I KNOW what I meant. And I have to tell you, you do it a lot. I took offense because I've taken a lot of heat for not telling you what to do and for saying that you do have a chance of winning, instead of telling people what they want to hear. I accept your apology.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Well my friend, you inferred wrong. I KNOW what I meant.

But I didn't know what you meant!

And I have to tell you, you do it a lot.

Now you sound like my wife!

I took offense because I've taken a lot of heat for not telling you what to do and for saying that you do have a chance of winning, instead of telling people what they want to hear.

Well, IMO you're a better man for it.

 

[nic4us]

In TWA ALPA incurred a DFR for not representing the TWA pilots properly (nut shell) . I'm still reading lees brief but from what I can tell it's very thorough.

It's not about the Bradford memo or advantage the East. I was there, I'll be called to testify and I can tell you it was to prevent ALPA from doing the same thing to us they did to the TWA pilots and strip them of their autonomous right to ratify any amendment to their CBA in 1113 hearings. Much of the pressure at TWA MEC was also felt at AAA MEC resulting in the loss of pension to PBGC and LOA 93. So much for ALPA ethics. In fact, maybe I'll get lucky enough to testify in Silvers court. I hope so, I'm looking forward to put this issue to rest once and for all.

You guys are going to lose on this and I personally look forward to the testimony.

You're implying because we are two thirds larger than you you're going to be disadvantaged with DOH and that certainly may be true but it's not illegal. Separate ratification requirements under ALPA merger policy made it even worst as far a a JCBA. The ninth understood this and Silver ismgoing tomget an education on it as well.

Again, a false assumption and a false conclusion.

You are assuming that any contract containing the Nic is unratifiable. That premise was never tested, is speculative at best, and does not consider the fact that continued indefinite seperate ops harms a great many east pilots who may very well dump on the AFO club for an improvement in salary and more importantly working conditions. I know 767one will stick with you guys, but say a guy 8 years younger who is say 767twentyone, might just like to get an extra 50K and 3 weeks more vacation a year.


Now I am going to say something that is going to really piss off ex717 and the TWA folks, but it is pertainent in the how different are our cases are subject.

ALPA was not the only entity that sold out the bottom 2/3rds of the TWA pilots. God only knows who was cutting deals on that one. You had the APA demanding their way or the highway, an about to fail TWA, whose CEO was Bill Compton, the ex-MEC chairman now CEO who put the company into a pre-packaged bankruptcy to make the deal happen (while getting a deal from the APA to preserve senior TWA pilots pensions and an STL fence?). You had Dick Gebhardt dem-rep-MO, the house majority leader at the time, watching as say 20,000 of his constituent are about to hit the street (likely not giving a damn about pilots seniority problems as long as everybody gets to keep their job). You had a bankruptcy court denying other more lucrative offers for the assets of TWA, holding out for the American deal, in order to keep the company together, so that the most people would remain employed.........etc...etc...etc....

The list goes on and on in the conspiricy of how did these pilots get screwed.

Now in our case, all you have is the east pilots arguing....the Nic is not fair....because it is not their prefered method of integration??? To compare our situation with the TWA ordeal is insulting to the TWA pilots.

 

[Res Judicata]

Again, chickensh1t you're welcome to say that to my face.

I'll be in Tempe soon enough and you know my name.....I'm looking forward to the challenge, chump.

Uh-huh. Very tough. Since I'm an adult, why don't just see you in court. I had a front row seat to your scab unions ass kicking. I'll be there again.

 

[nic4us]

You might believe that, a judge might believe that, a jury might believe that, but it is not true. Nicolau created this log jam. Oh how I wish the ALPA JNC had not pulled out of negotiations, then you would have seen for you own eyes what kind of contract it would have taken for a contract with the Nic to pass. There is plenty of evidence now, but you guys ignore it.

Bullshit!!!!

The east created the problem, the east is the problem, usapa is the incarnation of the problem.

All you are saying is that if Nicolau would have given the east what they wanted and stapled the West, their would be no issues, therefore it is Nicolau's fault?



Now just as you cannot say a Nic inclusive contract would not pass, I cannot say that if Nic would have given you DOH that a DOH contract would have passed seperate ratification, but my gut feeling is that it would have. Because the West is not the lowlife renegeing scumbags that the east has turned out to be, we would have sucked it up and moved on.

 

[Pi brat]

Now just as you cannot say a Nic inclusive contract would not pass, I cannot say that if Nic would have given you DOH that a DOH contract would have passed seperate ratification, but my gut feeling is that it would have. Because the West is not the lowlife renegeing scumbags that the east has turned out to be, we would have sucked it up and moved on.

That's your opinion and you have the right to be wrong!

I believe that had Nic come in a little more towards the center, we wouldn't be here right now. We would have b... and moaned, but it would have been done. You disagree, we will never know.

Nicolau created the Nicolau award, right? The Nicolau award is the log jam, right? Hence, Nicolau created the log jam. The potential was there for it to be a long jam had it gone bad for the west with dual ratification. A friend of mine told me that one of you MEC members told him that they thought you would have to use the "veto" of dual ratification, so maybe you would not have supported it, but other west pilots would have. It's real easy to say what you wouldn't have done since you didn't have to, but I've had plenty of west pilots say they would rather stay separate than accept DOH, so I think they would have used the "veto' had nic come in that way.

Now, the chances of Nic coming up with an award that would have us all sitting around the camp fire singing his praises were slim, right? So no matter what, with dual ratification there was the potential for a log jam. What the east pilots decided to do was to take this here dynamite and throw it in the middle, thereby removing the log jam. Good method? We'll see how it works out by retirement, but I acknowledge that we all have some splinters in our head.

Like that better?

 

[Pi brat]

Now you sound like my wife!

She called and asked me to talk to you about that! 🙄

 

[nevergiveup]

Bullshit!!!!

The east created the problem, the east is the problem, usapa is the incarnation of the problem.

All you are saying is that if Nicolau would have given the east what they wanted and stapled the West, their would be no issues, therefore it is Nicolau's fault?



Now just as you cannot say a Nic inclusive contract would not pass, I cannot say that if Nic would have given you DOH that a DOH contract would have passed seperate ratification, but my gut feeling is that it would have. Because the West is not the lowlife renegeing scumbags that the east has turned out to be, we would have sucked it up and moved on.

Just one more example of why the two groups can never be merged together.

 

[Pi brat]

You just proved the point. It is the east pilots that created the log jam. The company accepted the list. The west pilots accepted the list. It is the east pilots that refuse to accept the list. If east pilots accept the list is there a log jam anymore?

Nicolau created a list following ALPA merger policy that east pilots agreed to and were invilved with . You guys try and portray this like it was done to you and you had no say in this. It was east pilots that hired your lawyer. It was east pilots that paid for the arbitration. It was east pilots that decided strategy. It is east pilots that refuse to live up to your word and east pilots that cause the log jam.

What happens if you win LOA 93 and the company just refuses to pay? Is it the company that caused the log jam or Kasher because he came up with a bad ruling? (In the companies opinion)

As far as the log jam goes, see my post to Nic.

Most of the rest I agree with. The problem is that when something is perceived as so bad, the other side sees no down side to saying no, and in this case has the majority to pull it off, we all have a problem.

With the dynamite analogy, the west was standing on the bank saying "You won't buy dynamite! There is not dynamite in that box! You won't light that! It's not really going to go off! Damn!!"

 

[aquagreen73s]

Just one more example of why the two groups can never be merged together.

New blood who has no dog in this fight will prove you are wrong.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Unbiased Facts Update: July 14, 2011

See Story