US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Delay is all you have achieved. HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars is what you have lost...NEVER to be regained.

Pot, meet kettle. That is all YOU have achieved too!

 

[aquagreen73s]

I think it's kind of funny that both sides think that it is as clear as day that the TWA pilot's victory is clear proof of their sides case, and ultimate victory. B)

One side is delusional.

The company is never going to deal on seniority. The Nicolau exists, otherwise the company's declaratory action would have been dismissed.

 

[Hate2fly]

No. A couple of hundred retirements on the East and this thing is over.

aqua,

I know you have to be good sales guy to keep your dream alive.........

Every new hire coming to the east will always vote with the east pilots. The first day in any east cockpit they will realize the guy next to them will be out of this place in just a few years. Average east age 59 plus years old.

They will love separate operations for career advancement.

You co-founders have put your boys in a very poor position.

Keep your eye on the prize!

Hate

 

[Pi brat]

One side is delusional.

The company is never going to deal on seniority. The Nicolau exists, otherwise the company's declaratory action would have been dismissed.

Of course it exists, you have never heard me say that it doesn't. The question of the last SEVERAL years is does it have to be used?

Unlike a lot of people on here, I don't know the answer, but a former long term ALPA guy(I believe he is an attorney also) I flew with had an interesting POV. That was that if it had to be used, unaltered, the Addington case would have been ripe.

 

[fodase]

You are not a minority....sorry to burst your bubble.

So if judge silver gives the west class status what does that mean?

 

[aquagreen73s]

aqua,

I know you have to be good sales guy to keep your dream alive.........

Every new hire coming to the east will always vote with the east pilots. The first day in any east cockpit they will realize the guy next to them will be out of this place in just a few years. Average east age 59 plus years old.

They will love separate operations for career advancement.

You co-founders have put your boys in a very poor position.

Keep your eye on the prize!

Hate

Delusion du jour.

99 hires on the West are senior line holders. By the time East 99 hires hold decent lines, 99 hires on the West will be upgrading to captain under separate ops. Those are the facts. Over a third of East retirements are out of the right seat. Nicolau nailed it with the attrition numbers: 2:1.

I doubt the incoming pilots are as dumb as you hope they are.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Of course it exists, you have never heard me say that it doesn't. The question of the last SEVERAL years is does it have to be used?

Once the UN-MERGER Occurs, seems like this problem goes away for ALL the parties, NAUGHLER, USAIRWAYS, AOL, USAPA, ALPA ! Things that make you go hummmm! MM!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Of course it exists, you have never heard me say that it doesn't.

Not you.

And for the record, my delusion comments are not directed at the East as a whole. Just some brain dead ones posting on this forum (again, not all East pilots on here).

 

[fodase]

Of course it exists, you have never heard me say that it doesn't.

This is a new one. So if the Nicolau exists, how does it go away without advancing the easts interests over the wests?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Delusion du jour.

99 hires on the West are senior line holders. By the time East 99 hires hold decent lines, 99 hires on the West will be upgrading to captain under separate ops. Those are the facts. Over a third of East retirements are out of the right seat. Nicolau nailed it with the attrition numbers: 2:1.

I doubt the incoming pilots are as dumb as you hope they are.

Define "BY THE TIME" Retirements in the right seat, okay A330. B76I, Senior enough to hold a captain bid if they want it, your AOL is such BS! Keep those donations coming! your lack of any attrition WEST is not a secret! MM! How many upgrades in the last 3 years WEST?

 

[CallawayGolf]

What is happening is the here and now. So what is happening in the here and now....AOL is suing for a vote. You won't get a joint CBA if and unless we get a JCBA to vote on. We won't get that until the DJ action is resolved. We won't get that until silver makes a decision. If we get a decision were going to appeals court.

I’m not aware of any law suits in which AOL is the Plaintiff. Can you provide the court and docket number of the matter to which you are referring?

Also, there will be no JCBA until the section 22 question is resolved in court so long as USAPA continues to refuse to accept the Nicolau list. AOL cannot make the process go any faster and Management cannot make the process go any faster either. Only USAPA has the ability to accelerate negotiations to a TA which can be voted on by the MIGS by closing out section 22 with the unmodified NIC. All delays, lost income and legal costs are the fault of USAPA failing to accept their legal responsibility with regards to the SLI which was contractually required by the Transition Agreement.

You call it willful ignorance. Funny, I agree, it's just a matter of which side of the mississippi your on and which way you point yur finger. However, youre take on this merger of equals is too subjective. Again, all the other groups were treated as if their years of service with their respected companies were part of this so called "newly formed company ". Only the West pilots wanted more and they don't have it. We are now arguing about the legal aspect again. You believe the TA carries more value than I do and well just have to let this play out in the courts.

Only the west pilots wanted more than what? Are the west pilots asking for more than what the arbitrator awarded? If so please explain. The truth is that it is the east pilots who want more than what the Award granted them via binding arbitration. So yes, I agree with AOL and Management that the TA carries substantial legal authority which USAPA would prefer to ignore. Just because USAPA prefers to ignore the TA doesn't mean they will get Management or west pilots to go along with their pernicious schemes.

Again quoting the 10-Q filed by the company for the period ending September 30, 2005:

On September 14, 2005, US Airways Group, US Airways, America West Holdings and AWA reached agreement with the two ALPA-represented pilot groups at the separate airlines on a comprehensive agreement (the Transition Agreement) that will govern many merger-related aspects of the parties’ relationships until there is a single collective bargaining agreement covering all pilots.

Seems crystal clear to me that the terms of the TA are fully and legally expected to be abided by until a JCBA is ratified. No amount of slight of hand and smoke and mirrors from an unscrupulous attorney will change the terms of the TA because AOL and Management will not moved by such spurious interpretations of plain and simple contract language in order to give the east pilots a benefit to which there are not legally entitled to (west pilot seniority and status).

 

[luvn737s]

Again, chickensh1t you're welcome to say that to my face.

I'll be in Tempe soon enough and you know my name.....I'm looking forward to the challenge, chump.

Can you detail exactly what you plan to do during that exchange? Keep it brief, as forwarded e-mails take up alot of bandwidth.

Tell training scheduling to put down your sim periods in pencil, in case the consequences of your false bravado require them to reassign it to an employed pilot 😀 .

You sound like you're willing to go above and beyond to do your part in that attrition thing (albeit a few years ahead of plan)

 

[nic4us]

Deep? We will hire Haber and Seham to kick Leonidas one more time. Here is your "deep" discussion of how they furloughed and took the pension to make it fly. We will counter with this for your "damages" mantra.



GESTATION PERIOD

US Airways was talking merger with America West well in advance of its second bankruptcy filing, but the pay, pension and retiree-benefit cutbacks of its current stint in Chapter 11 are what made the deal feasible, according to a regulatory filing by America West.

The filing, to the Securities and Exchange Commission, makes clear that even though the deal was concluded within a month after initial press reports that the two airlines were in negotiations, its origins go back as far as February 2004. The filing also revises downward, to 39% from 45%, the share of the merged company's equity that will go to current America West shareholders, who are being asked to approve the merger.

In a registration statement describing merger terms to these shareholders, America West gives this account of how the deal came about:

THE FIRST DISCUSSIONS resulted from the troubles US Airways faced after emerging from its first bankruptcy, on Mar. 31, 2003. The carrier reduced its highest-in-the-industry costs considerably during an eight-month reorganization but overestimated its post-bankruptcy revenues and was surprised, then as now, by fuel price increases. Casting about for ways to avoid another Chapter 11 filing, US Airways looked at an America West merger as one alternative.

For its part, America West's management "believed that consolidation in the industry was inevitable, and was interested in the potential benefits of combining the airlines' complementary east-west route networks." But the talks ended in July 2004 when both carriers concluded that it wouldn't work due to "a number of issues, including . . . labor, pension and benefit costs." Two months later, US Airways went back into Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

In December 2004, assuming it would reduce its labor costs further, US Airways set out to investigate deals with other companies. US Airways/America West talks were reopened in January, this time figuring that their labor costs would turn out to be "similar," and that bankruptcy would increase the ability to combine networks more efficiently and cost effectively than before. US Airways' prospective post-reorganization liquidity also was a plus.

Enter the committees and the consultants. The board of America West's parent, America West Holdings, was briefed on the renewed talks on Jan. 20 as part of a strategy presentation. The strategy and finance committee of US Airways Holdings' board was advised late in February. Legal, financial and labor analyses followed in March, with the key finding that US Airways' labor costs no longer made a merger impractical.

The pace of negotiations quickened in April. The airlines and their advisers--The Seabury Group for US Airways and Greenhill & Co. for America West, mainly--met and teleconferenced often on such issues as the ratio for converting America West shares into shares of the new company (shares of the old US Airways will be worthless as part of the reorganization), the need for additional equity investment and the composition of the new company's board. The airlines met with potential investors and with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which administers government-guaranteed loans to both carriers and has veto power over the merger.

Word of the merger talks leaked out midway through the month. On Apr. 19, the day the full board of US Airways met and reviewed the negotiations, The Wall Street Journal posted a web site report, and a print version the next day. On Apr. 22 the carriers confirmed it.

In May the negotiators settled on $375 million as the minimum new investment needed for the merger to proceed. By then, the airlines had lined up $350 million from four entities--Eastshore Holdings, PAR Investment Partners, ACE Aviation Holdings and Peninsula Investment Partners, with $125 million, $100 million, $75 million and $50 million, respectively. The total reached $500 million in a deal concluded after the merger was announced in mid-May, by which Wellington Management Co. will invest $150 million on behalf of funds it manages.

The Wellington investment apparently accounts for the reduced percentage ownership in the new company for America West shareholders. In the mid-May announcement, the division was said to be 45% to America West shareholders, 41% to new equity investors and 14% to some of US Airways' creditors. Now, the new investors will get 49%, America West shareholders 39% and the creditors 12%.

THE MERGER CLEARED an important hurdle June 23, when the Justice Dept. said it will have no objections based on antitrust laws. This was no surprise--there was very little overlap in the route networks. They will face competition from Southwest nonstops on Philadelphia-Phoenix and Philadelphia-Las Vegas, two of their four hub-to-hub markets. On Charlotte-Las Vegas, AirTran Airways and Independence Air offer one-stop service. Only on Charlotte-Phoenix will competition be limited to legacy carriers' one-stops.


Article Comments


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Swan,

I qouted you but this is really in response to EOA.

I bolded a number of times in your article that the writer, (either someone at AVIATION WEEK, or within the company who talked to AVIATION WEEK) refered to the post merger corporation as "the new company".

So, EOA, I was neither of those persons, and it looks to me that both that person and Wall Street, and the Aviation community, and the SEC, all consider LCC a "new company". Therefore, I am not alone in my belief that the company is only 6 years old.

Further, your arguement about the difference between stock symbol and incorporation was very valid, however, I cannot find out if a new articles of incorporation were obtained. I did note however, that if you look at the AAA annual report for 2004, it is for US Airways, Inc.


US Airways, Inc.

(Debtor-in-Possession)

(Exact name of registrant as specified in its charter)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



State of Incorporation: Delaware



2345 Crystal Drive, Arlington, Virginia 22227

(Address of principal executive offices)



(703) 872-7000

(Registrant’s telephone number, including area code)



(Commission file number: 1-8442)



(I.R.S. Employer Identification No: 53-0218143




However, the post merger annual reports list the company as US Airways GROUP, Inc.




US Airways Group, Inc.



(Exact name of registrant as specified in its charter)
(Commission File No. 1-8444)


Delaware 54-1194634
(State or other Jurisdiction of
Incorporation or Organization) (IRS Employer
Identification No.)


111 West Rio Salado Parkway, Tempe, Arizona 85281
(Address of principal executive offices, including zip code)

(480) 693-0800
(Registrant’s telephone number, including area code)

Securities registered pursuant to Section 12(B) of the Act:


With a new IRS employer ID number then US Airways Inc, is also listed below US Airways GROUP, Inc, with its same old IRS employer number it had since around 1982?

So, like all good arguements, we are probably both somewhat correct, but the fact that Cleary and usapa are completely out of touch, which was what my original post was about, is simply indisputable.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

74 2902 H. .WILLIAMS 74
75 2938 R.C.RIEGGER 75
76 2940 K.P.AMSRUD 76
77 2979 F.A.VANDER SCHAAR 77
78 2996 M. .PEREZ 78
79 2999 B. .DUBOIS 79
N 80 SEP 3023 R. .QUINTANILLA 80
N 81 SEP 3024 S.M.FREEMAN According to the lase EAST BID these 99hires are already captains! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

NIC, you luv that NEW COMPANY argument, same ole contract and yet our dates of hire aren't all reflective of 6 years ago! Why don't you check out the COC provision in the EAST contract or PBGC determination! Get back to us on that one!